Reckless Aggression , where does it comme from, and which lines are known to pass it down? - Page 8

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Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 01 October 2019 - 15:10

I want to see those Caucasians put under REAL pressure.
BlackMalinois

by BlackMalinois on 01 October 2019 - 15:10

Also a crazy situation with a judge but the dog stays in his grip don,t let go ,waiting for the command.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17GVyWxnZvY


by ValK on 01 October 2019 - 18:10

apple
the goal of hunt drive is to capture and kill

sure... on condition if that prey cannot switch the role and kill the hunter :)

apple
Competitive aggression/fight drive, where when the opponent of the dog ratchets up the fight, the dog ratchets up the fight even more, especially and usually seen in Mals with extreme prey and hunt drive, has little to nothing to do with defensive aggression. It is about hunt, prey and possession. That means less worry/more courage.

frankly that's means dog not met serious resistance/counterattack.

apple
video of defense testing of some Caucasian Shepherd dogs...
...Low prey, high defense dogs. They look pretty weak to me.

i'm not an expert on caucasian shepherds but unlike you, have seen and interacted with few of them back in 80s.
in another topic we touched those dogs and i did state, from own experience i'd found that well bred GSDs more intense, dangerous and dificult to deal with in confrontation than caucasian dogs. albeit i must admit, i haven't seen enough of CSDs, to be absolutely certain in my impression.

BlackMalinois
Pitbull/mali/dutch shepherd cross mix

another example of absolutely useless/senseless extravagance.

Hired Dog
its enough pause to allow one to get a gun, goal of bite accomplished. In the case of LE, Valk, that malinois you posted the video of, would turn you inside out with its initial entry if you were a suspect with no suit on...
...suspects also have rights.

sure, attack by any breed of dog would be enough factor of distraction but we already have been through this gestures with guns in another topic.
anyway, even in hypothetical situation of confrontation with dog, i'm pretty sure would prefer that dog to be "reckless" mali than that flegmatic, 180~200lbs caucasian shepherd.

well, to start with... suspect also has right do not commit criminal offence and well aware of consequences.

duke1965
the reaction of the dog on the judge stepping in shows what happened in training, says nothing about the dog being weak or whatever

nope, it says a lot. no doubt dog is lacking aggression and selfconfidence. pretty obvious dog was ready to run away, if aggressive approach were conducted by approaching person.

BlackMalinois

by BlackMalinois on 01 October 2019 - 18:10

 


BlackMalinois
Pitbull/mali/dutch shepherd cross mix

another example of absolutely useless/senseless extravagance.


No you are very,very wrong some of the best X malinois in KNPV have pitbull mix in their blood, fight,hardness ,hunting  drives stable nerves , litle gameness,agility are some good properties IMO what we miss in a LOT ..GSD today.   Even USA have some pitbulls  as  detection dogs in duty.

 

 

https://www.ksat.com/news/6-pit-bulls-graduate-from-narcotics-training-to-become-k9s-across-us

 

 

by Hired Dog on 01 October 2019 - 20:10

Valk, you are the voice of dissent. Nothing else can be said here sir!

by duke1965 on 02 October 2019 - 05:10

@ valk, its a reaction of the dog, simple pavlov, to what happened in training a million times before, basically can say that its trained behaviour,

I have seen tons of good dogs in KNPV and IPO that perform well, but are "damaged" on one or two points, also some of those who have 'Reckless"attack,

I know of one dog in USA, I personally saw in training many times, that has brutal long bite, but on one exercise had problems and got heavily corrected and went into avoidence on that exercise, because of the corrections he got all the time there


by apple on 02 October 2019 - 10:10

Valk,
Regarding your belief about hunting breeds and prey drive in dogs folding when the prey can kill the "hunter", what about the Karelian Bear dog that weighs about 50 pounds, Walker hounds used to hunt Mountain lions and the original bulldogs and bull baiting where a little bulldog could bring down a bull weighing close to a ton.  There are Rhodesian ridgebacks that hunt lions, Lacy dogs for hog hunting, Black Mouth Cur, etc.  All of these breeds hunt animals that could easily kill them.

emoryg

by emoryg on 02 October 2019 - 11:10

It can be very difficult at times to have the police dog release a suspect, especially if he is screaming and/or trying to protect himself from injury. When the dog has a powerful, deep grip it is all but impossible for anyone to remain motionless. Extensive training has to be delivered to the dog to ensure he will release under all circumstances. Some of this training involves high levels of punishment in an attempt to override the dog’s desires to maintain the confrontation. The bite and return game is a proven training strategy for providing a consequence for the dog releasing and returning to the handler. In the game, the dog’s behavior of returning permits him to go back for another bite with the decoy increasing his fight as the dog becomes more successful in returning. However, it provides no consequence for the dog not returning. Once the dog has learned and demonstrated his performance on the release command, his failure to release is the failure to follow a command. It is a command and not a request. The dog must have a consequence for his failure to comply and this is where the punishment comes in. There are no exceptions like in training or trials. Since the handler is the administrator of the punishment, the dog can become wary of his presence. This may be the only time you see this behavior displayed. Again, the dog understands what the command is, but refuses to comply. His avoidance to the approach from his handler is not open hearted, he knows what he has done is wrong and is expecting the following punishment sequence and wishes to avoid it.

There are times when someone (normally the back-up officer) approaches the dog on the bite and the dog releases the suspect. This is usually the beginning of a very bad day. The dog’s desire to confront and control can shift to the officer with the same commitment as seen with the suspect. This is where having another handle running with the canine team is beneficial. Most have been around this type of dog and realize he may confront them if he considers them a challenge to himself of even to the suspect.

I am the only one to punish my dog. Anyone else will immediately be seen as someone who is attempting to dominate and the dog will readily accept this challenge with very ugly consequences. With that said, during my days in the sport it was quite common for others to deliver punishment to the dog during bite work. This often provided a mechanical advantage and also served to show the dog that the handler’s proximity to and from did not excuse him from disobedience and the punishment that may follow. Even the helper would participate when a dog was especially dirty. I do not know the dog in the video, but I imagine some of the same training methodology was being used on him.
BlackMalinois

by BlackMalinois on 02 October 2019 - 12:10

 


Yes I agree it looks like handler issue for punishment , but on that level
most of that dogs get some hard corrections it is the moment thejudge go to
that dog and that dog runaway,for met that dog is not ready for performance
on that championship if  I knew my dog is some weak the dog don,t deserve to be there on a championship .That handler have known this by 3 years training ,
but that is the different between a sport dog and real dog, that dog on the bicycle waiting for command and stay in his grip and that is a much better dog.
Thats why routine conditioning  sport training sucks IMO it tells nothing about a dog  realy is ,when
a situation suddenly changed in a routin exercise that tell you much more about a dog how the dog will react , example if a decoy suddenly falls on a dog will the dog holds his grip or he will let go?  for a good  police dog you need option one.

 

by Hired Dog on 03 October 2019 - 08:10

What emory just stated up there is the absolute truth and it applies to working dogs all over this planet. Those who are experienced will understand it, those with different agendas, well, maybe they wont.


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