by Johnson K9 on 28 August 2019 - 05:08
You ask a breeder if they ever had hip problems and the answer is always 'NO NEVER HAD IT' but has over 20 litters. Really Never?
I would respect a breeder more that said " Yes" it was x amount from this litter but when we breed to different dogs we had x with or without it.
I just got banned from DDR forum cause I brought up hips it was not DDR related but coat color was. Are hips that bad to talk about?
by Hundmutter on 28 August 2019 - 06:08
I understand this is often the case in America. Let me reassure you it is NOT always like that in other parts of the world; certainly here in the UK there are a good many breeders who will admit to having had HD or ED problems in their stock. Not all; but many. These also are the people who consistently use radiographic facilities, and act on the results of our Kennel Club / British Veterinary Association scheme's scoring Panel, our equivalent of OFA - originally initiated by the main GSD Clubs but open to all other breeds for decades now. And gradually the overall average hip score has reduced - not as much as if EVERYBODY used the scheme and stopped using dogs wth high scores - but significantly, over the years. For one thing, if the dog is Surveyed, its hip and elbow status are publicly available, as are the test results through our Kennel Club.
So other ways of thinking and being ARE possible ! Mind you, the British dog breeding community is not as concerned with giving buyers impossible, meaningless 'guarantees' against these joint & skeletal problems, with their huge genetic component, which are endemic in this breed (and many others), and by their nature cannot be eradicated completely.
If everyone in the US who wondered, as you do OP, why the breed cannot be more honest about this got in touch with each other, you COULD change the prevailing profit-conscious ethos, for the sake of the dogs' health, and for buyers having to deal with the probems less.
by Gustav on 28 August 2019 - 11:08
by Q Man on 28 August 2019 - 14:08
The truth of the matter of Hips is that no one understands what causes Hip Dysplasia...I mean it is known what can affect the hips but not what causes hip problems from the beginning... Dogs with Hip problems or other faults can still produce progeny with no problems...So what does this say to the theories...
People seem to now be on the bandwagon of using DM tests...but the truth is it's just not a good test to give you what your looking for...
I feel there's really been very little progess in addressing the problems in dogs...
by Hundmutter on 28 August 2019 - 16:08
All of which is true to some extent - but the 'UK breed mean' did reduce, the more our Hip Scheme was used, and gave breeders here a total score over which it was not advised to use in breeding; so hopefully this is still coming down gradually. Even if progress is very slow - and there are many factors which are involved in why it is that slow. The point I am making is that the breed in the UK seems to have less cases of HD (and perhaps ED, though there are differences with elbows) than it did overall, and certainly less prevalence, proportionally, than the GSD 'scene' in the US because more breeders take it into consideration.
The OP's question was about openness about the issue, in people's breeding stock. Where breeders take part in publicising even only their GOOD results and breeding with that stock, questions can be answered, and inferences taken, about the dogs they are NOT breeding with / presenting for Survey.
So I say again, that something at least could be done to help with the US situation if breeders who actively want [even limited] change to happen could put that ahead of the profits they can make from churning out puppies from parents with any old hip record and would put their heads together. In these days of instant communications that would be easier for them than it was for the UK League and the GSD Improvement panel back in the old days.
by Rik on 28 August 2019 - 23:08
I will however say that closing in on 40 years with the GSD, I have seen dogs/lines that produce a high incidence of of HD (ED also) and dogs/lines that produce a low number. This was Am. S/L, but I think would not be any different for any line.
IMO, the more info the breeder has in making a choice (OFA, SV, UK) the better chance one has of making a better choice.
by Baerenfangs Erbe on 29 August 2019 - 02:08
I've always been open about the health issues within my breeding. Had a UAP, have one DJD1 and borderline hips so far. One female has a TV and that's pretty much what I've had so far within 4 Litters. Personally, transparency is everything to me. This is why I rather have OFA over SV so everyone can look up the results of the dogs and track genetics. You get different results with different dogs. Overall, I've got a pretty good track records so far.
When I am looking for a stud I want to know the good, bad and ugly. And when someone tells me they never had any health issues, than I walk away.
by BlackMalinois on 29 August 2019 - 05:08
Not only hip problems, GSD have much more problems than hips, same is in Holland and Europe here
they never talked about this and its not exist in their bloodlines of course, problem is breeders keep silent about this and more bad offspring comes around.Breeders only talk about the good offspring they produce not the crap one. I know breeders who use wrong studs and females who produced proven bad offspring but keep silent about this but this studs are still in the game. This happen for many years what do you think what
impact this have on the GSD breed. And its not only this happens with GSD .
Organizations like the SV and VDH have also BLAME about this problems.
And of course there are some honest breeders but not many, most breeders don,t like to talk about this in public some are very hypocrit.
by Hundmutter on 29 August 2019 - 07:08
BE and blackmal: You are both right, there too. Unfortunately BE you seem, from reports over the years here on PDB, let alone expressed elsewhere, to be in a small minority - given the sheer huge numbers of people who breed - in the US. If others who are tee'd off with this as the OP seems to be could actually put their heads together, things might change, at least a bit. I agree websites do not help, if they ban contributions from anyone mentioning that no one admits to HD (or whatever); but what is the alternative ? Pasive acceptance, so it can all go on getting worse ?
All I'm saying about the UK is that this omerta is less prevalent here, with proportionally more people being willing to openly discuss problems, and act on problems where they can; and down the line that must have a beneficial effect for the dogs, even if it is not particularly obvious.
Of course, if more of the working kennels in the UK took part in using Surveys of their dogs, that would also raise the British game !!
by BlackMalinois on 29 August 2019 - 11:08
Yes its a like an Omerta for GSD
This is an example from a FCI pedigree paper in Holland they only notice the Hips very strange
( Can,t upload pictures on this server?)
And of course it s not possible test everything but I saw last year a breeder who tested more than
20 hereditary diseases from a dog with oficial statement from a respctable vet and show this in public , thats what we need, not only one but all the dogs he has.