West German show line studs - Page 1

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V78 (BSZS) Fritz von Babylon, IPO2 daughters
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Proven IPO 1 female for sale from VA Finn v Zellwa
Female for sale

melba

by melba on 20 July 2019 - 23:07

Casually looking around for a WGSL stud for a litter next year. My bitch is OFA good/normal, DM clear.

I am looking for a dog that is balanced front and rear with no roach. I'm am drawn to a lot of SG rated dogs, but the overall balance is more important than show rating. I would like balanced prey/defense and an off switch. Titles are not the be all end all for the right dog, but I would like to see progeny that show the qualities I am looking for.

Melissa
Koots

by Koots on 21 July 2019 - 22:07

Melba - is that dog that you posted a link to, the body type you are looking for or is that the female you want to breed? That dog's line-breeding is too close for SV rules (max closeness 2-3 or 3-2), BTW.

Depending on where you are located, in the Pacific North-West a couple of breeders come to mind - Bullinger and Temar.  They both have WGSL's.

melba

by melba on 22 July 2019 - 00:07

The pedigree is my bitch, yes. From what I understand, it was the result of an accidental mating, but her temperament is something I want to bring in. She is a quiet and steady no matter what is thrown her way. An outcross would be ideal, knowing how closely she is linebred.

I would like less roach, honestly. I don't like her topline.

She will be bred to a working line this heat, and if all goes well, would not be above shipping frozen or fresh extended semen next year.

Thank you!
Melissa


Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 22 July 2019 - 13:07

Finding a show line that's balanced front and rear is next to impossible. That's why I switched to working line.

With the above female, it's not so much the roach as it is her very steep croup. That directs the drive upwards, rather than forwards, and causes the front end to lift.

by Centurian on 22 July 2019 - 14:07

Melba , For whatever this worth .

Topline - you state : "I would like less roach, honestly. I don't like her topline."

The topline of your dog according to The GS Standard [ the reference that I compare your dog to ] is way off . So your expression , a little less reoach ... IMOp your dog needs more than a little less roach , in your wording , to meet the Standrard. The withers are off , the front angualtion could be better , the withers could be a little better , the topline of the torso as well as the croup '. i.e. from head to tail .

What I would say is : IMOp , your thinking and expression of what you want will not occur in one breeding. If you were my very close friend I would explain to you that you need a very very defined [ program to achieve this goals [ i.e to rectify the flaws ] . This just is not realistic and will not happen in the next mating no matter how good the male is.

Working line.. you may keep some of the working traits and I do not begrudge that, but my feeling and impression : that the next breeding to a working line, unless ***** that working line has Very High V - rated [ by German standards ], and even that alone , will not alone help you with what you have in mind. This has to be addressed over multiple breedings / generations . Also I would IMOp say that other features similarily need to be addressed , the withers, the front and angulation as well as the croup. IMOp , I re-state , breeding to the Standard will not happen with just a very very very good* male - it's a start that requires forethought to the next generation and the next generation thereafter , even before you breed her the next time.

So if you want to try to preserve working traits , that is fine - would be thinking of that High V rated working line male. However if you choose to go with a VA or high V rated WGSL male , in order to gain somewthing realize , as I have written so many times , that it will cost you something [ genetically that is ] . For you will lose something ias it often is a Trade Off .

Please do not be offended , I do not write to citisize for I am trying to help you by sharing my opinion. The topline .. that will not be corrected by thinking " a little less roach'. You have to be defintive as to exactly what you need to achieve and how. In truth , your dog's line need a little more than " a little less roach " if you want to achieve the German GS Standard.

Good luck ... BTW , with no promotional intention ---never met her or been to her kennnel . But years ago Tracy Bullinger did have some very nice GSs . What I would do is to research / engine search the Regional USA Club Show results as well as the National Show results and that may give you some information to start with . Even when I bred my High V rated female GS , and to mention I had my very very good stud dogs, I researched throughout USA for the male that I wanted to bring something different to my female. I was not looking for high V structure , my goal was VA-1progeny . BTW- My female and my stud males were high V ... My message to you is that I am not suggesting to you anything that I have not done myself and thought of . I was honest and realistic with myself . Many times I have written that breeding is more than just getting two great dogs and mating them ... So I had to practice what I preached. I knew what my female needed and I went to seek out that which would get her to VA progeny [ even if that was someone elses GS ]. For you - you need to seek out that which will [ continually ] help correct the flaws in your lines IMOp .

by Nans gsd on 22 July 2019 - 15:07

Centurian; I believe if I am not mistaken "Melba" is trying to preserve and pass on her temperament more than anything.

BUT I must say that I tried that with a great working bitch of another breed and her temperament was not passed on. Was able to better the conformation of her puppies in both litters she had but also passed on other health problems with better conformation but still not what I wanted temperament wise. So Centurian is correct in that this cannot be done in one breeding or first generation; maybe by third generation. Look at the grandparents and great grandparents, as that is probably more likely what will come out of first few breeding. BUT whatever you decide, good luck. Nan

by Centurian on 22 July 2019 - 18:07

Nand gsd , yes - I understand that and you make a good point stressing that . Yes temeprament is paramount .... but .. it is also important for all breeders to remember : " Form and Function go hand in hand " [ are equally important ].

I try to help Melba because what good is it , if the dog [ the prgeny] has good temperament and works half way decently but the dog is not put together half way decent. It is my hope that Melba does find a mate for her female that will better the structure yet will also maintain the good temperament. IMOp , that would be much , much , much better for her, if she so chooses ..


Spruell

by Spruell on 23 July 2019 - 19:07

https://www.working-dog.com/dogs-details/5063003/Zicco-vom-Silberwald

I'm not sure how to to turn it into a clickable link...

Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 23 July 2019 - 23:07

Click on 'enable editor', then at the end of the third row of symbols, you will see one that looks like a link in a chain. Click on that, and cut and paste the link into the box that pops up.

https://www.working-dog.com/dogs-details/5063003/Zicco-vom-Silberwald


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