German shepherd in KNPV - Page 10

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by duke1965 on 03 June 2019 - 10:06

think not, people are overcomplicating way too much, as breeding and training isnt all that complicated, new terminology normally comes with new system or video/book that will cost money Wink Smile

emoryg

by emoryg on 03 June 2019 - 12:06

This paradigm of dog training will always be the same. If one finds it easy, it becomes quite simple. If one finds it difficult, it becomes quite complicated.

For those who find it easy, success lies in their ability to apply the simplistic learning theories to their dog to achieve the desired goals.  For those who find it difficult, their lack of success lies in the quagmire of sophistic reasoning that hinders their ability to communicate in simplistic terms what they want from the dog.  


by Centurian on 03 June 2019 - 12:06

Duke ..... EXACTLY

I repeat : dogs are animals and so are we . Do they not have the same emotions and thoughts as we do . Do they not have motivations [ dogs always always do somethingwith a purpose , even the turning of an eye]. Do they have the same character traits i.e courage - they can handle a lot of stress , or  are whimpy /  low stress level ,as someone who will pee their pants so easily ? ..

Do not people and dogs percieve threats , feel threatened ? Do not people want to be safe in the things they do , even liesure activities ? Then why is so difficult to undestand other animals feel threatened and at times do not feel safe ?

In  life's circumstances , do not the emotions and thoughts of people change instantaneously , and that even in the same event their emotions and thoughts change from one moment to another ? Just think of someone watching a movie, do their emotions stay static or are they dynamically changing ?

When some one steals a pocket book and you chase that person _ really now , do we say " oh... that person is in prey drive ". Come on now of course not and do we even have to describe those behaviors to understand that chasing or what is exactly going on . Do we not see all different types of traits and personalities in people that the average person can discern and describe traits /brhaviors as well in the dogs? I hear this everyday from people. " My dog is soft , my dog is stubborn , my dog is lazy , my dog is fulll of energy and chases everyting  " ..... my dog is this and my dog is  that .

Behaviors  : Are they that much different between dogs and humans. If you think so ,I ask :  do not humans do things to survive, do they will eat , they will fight to gain or protect  , they will flee , they will frighten , do  they love to own things [ possess] , don't they hoard things [ even dogs bury bones ] , don't they form hierarchies / rank status and social relations ? If someone punches you in the mouth , cannot you understand a bit about that person that punched you [ of course we autmoatically make judgements the first our eyes see them ] and also how many chioces do you have to respond to that punch ? From that or a repsonse cannot you tell the make up of that person too ?

So ..... I often say : you cannot understand and teach a child or a dog unless : you understand the nature of yourself and you understand the nature of that child and that dog. If you cannot master yourself , you will fall short of mastering the dog.. that simple. If you want the dog to be disciplined then you have to be disciplined , If you want the dog to be calm then you have to be calm in body and mind, If you want the dog to be motivated you also must be motivated [ even if that is to motivate the dog] , if you want the dog to have control then you must present yourself such that the dog has confidence in you and you are in control. ..... Anybody can go trough the motions in teaching a dog . I taught an 8 year girl last summer how to sleeve a GS . And she  did take a short send frontal sleeve bite with my GSs . That does not make for underatnding the dog or being a great helper/decoy, taking a bite or gooing through  choreographed techniques , methods or motions.  . What makes a great helper and decoy , ' is to understand instantaneously from moment to moment that individual dog andto be to interact with it in such a way that you attain your teaching goal' . To understand the dog in thought deed and action. BTW , dogs read and understand us , at times perhaps , much more than we understand them , how ironic as were are to be intellectually superior to them .

      Gustav with the highest repsect and admiration for you that I have after reading ALL your posts, are you trying to tell me that instinctively that the dogs understand us much better than we can understand them insticitvely as well as cerebrally  ? Dogs have no difficulty sizing us up , yet we as humans  cannot with simplicity understand what they think , feel and do ? 

Gustav...With due respect and consideration for you ,  I fail to understand , how you see this differently. This is not at all all that complicated.. most of all this dog jargon in the dog world is a smoke screen .. It is just simple and plain common sense . We see people acting like the animals do every day- and also animals presenting the same behaviors most often [ not always] , within their capabilities , as humans do , all day long. Unfortunately in this world the trend is to go by 'what you feel and think ' , even be it wrong , prior to the use of common sense.

Interesting .. people make problems 99% of the time and not the dogs.. So as I told the people in my classes : just stop and think and ask questions , for the dog has the answers to [ just about ] every question that you ask about it. Why is the dog doing this , acting like this , what motivates this dog/ what is it trying to accomplish . How do I say thisa to the dog such that the dog understands what I want. , what is the attitude of this dog . " THINK people " ...you all can think ... Goodness I taught last summer a 10 year gir, daughter of my friend , to sleeve my GS in a short send for the bite. She did not have trouble understanding the motivation, intention personality and the makeup of that dog... I am certain everybody else reading this is just as capable as anyone else ... Common sense if the person has not learned basic mathematics then why do you teach algebra. If the dog does not out reliably , willingly , immediately , then why does one go onto more advanced training ? Common sense , is it  not ? ...

by ValK on 03 June 2019 - 18:06

a couple pages back i told about lack of books, related to dogs training. those few we had, was quite basic, with description different dog's breeds and types used in service. their suitability or not for destined purposes. set of skills dogs need to achieve through training and suggestions in regards of practical approach in training.
nowhere was discussions of philosophical/psychological aspects. dog either fit or not. that's all.
90% in modern writing about dogs training pretty much useless sophistication with sole purpose to make book thicker and to looks impressive.
best book to read and learn about dog training it's to get involved themselves in practical interaction with dogs.
more someone throws around those terminology, it seems less they really understand the dogs.

by duke1965 on 03 June 2019 - 19:06

the simple fact of the matter is that both training and breeding cannot be learned from a book or video, as every dog is different and respond different to various stimuli

for breeding goes the same, no such thing as a magic furmula, so for both breeding and training there should be seminairs for reading and interpreting dogs, behaviours etc, and recognizing qualities in a dog that are trained, versus genetic.

 

my favourite stupid comment is when people ask, how to judge a dog if not IPO 3 titled and trailed in competition !

people should learn to look past that crap

by Gustav on 03 June 2019 - 20:06

I agree Duke, neither can it be explained by book or video....now it can be heard and seen by video and written word, but.......
Anyway, there is some good dialogue on this thread, and cheers to everyone.

by ValK on 03 June 2019 - 21:06

cannot agree to that. video and writing can be very good means on condition being honest educational material from those, who did make them.

i wish, we were as rich as westerners and had same easy access to fancy gadgets to make homebrew videos back then :)

by duke1965 on 04 June 2019 - 05:06

so how do you show/explain/teach timing and reading bodylanguage and different responses to different variations in a book, or in case of breeding, how to explain evaluating a female in order to select right male for mating, 

I regularly see weak and or nervy dogs, discribed as strong an/or high drive

how will a book or online course explain this and train people to see the difference

by Gustav on 04 June 2019 - 10:06

Exactly!

by apple on 04 June 2019 - 10:06

About every profession is the result of education via books/visual media and hands on experience, not just one or the other.


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