National Breeding Program for working dogs - Page 1

Pedigree Database

High Drive Malinois - 9 Months Old
Male for sale

AKC WORKING LINE BLACK GERMAN SHEPHERD PUPPIES
Puppies for sale

Handler Aggressive Sable(Czech Import)
Male for sale

by astrovan2487 on 17 November 2018 - 02:11

Thought some of you might find this interesting
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fvets.2018.00284/full?&utm_source=Email_to_authors_&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=T1_11.5e1_author&utm_campaign=Email_publication&field&journalName=Frontiers_in_Veterinary_Science&id=383317&fbclid=IwAR2u5l09T5kWnWAKhgS2WMRC-kHHkjVHrpd1sbMnOPf8Hbf-xBYI__4VjSs

by Rik on 17 November 2018 - 03:11

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fvets.2018.00284/full?&utm_source=Email_to_authors_&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=T1_11.5e1_author&utm_campaign=Email_publication&field&journalName=Frontiers_in_Veterinary_Science&id=383317&fbclid=IwAR2u5l09T5kWnWAKhgS2WMRC-kHHkjVHrpd1sbMnOPf8Hbf-xBYI__4VjSs

 

ha, just wanted to try and make that a live link as I do not seem to have a knack for such.

I don't think any organized breeding effort in the U.S. has really been sucessful. Including military efforts with the GSD and Doberman Marine dog, a;so seeing eye just off the top of my head.

detection dogs, I'm betting if the market is there, there are people who could supply them from shelters in the U.S., if given access to test dogs.

jmo,

Rik

by duke1965 on 17 November 2018 - 07:11

I have been visiting and working with american breeders on different levels for over 30 years, and main problem(and this isnot for USA only) is that the majority of breeders look at fame, Titles and championship-rankings, rather than actual qualities of the dog and/or matching qualities of the breedingpair.

IMO prey/hunt is the easyest drive to reproduce, where hardness, courage and civil agression are a bit more difficult to produce largely available in a litter.

I have no problem buying high drive dogs, harder to find  REAL good duals, not sleeveretrievers, so for this we set up our own breedingprogram in a new facility we set up for this purpose.

so if this can be done in europe, I see no reason why it cannot be done in the USA, but people have to look at the dogs qualities first and foremost, and start by getting TOP females, instead of looking to breed to the hot male of the moment.

Also I understand the logistic problem in USA as distances are big, but I drive days as well in europe to find good dogs and breeding material, so that is no excuse 

 

 

by astrovan2487 on 17 November 2018 - 13:11

Rik, thanks for fixing the link for me, couldn't figure out how to get it to work.

I think the reasoning behind this was to be different from failed national breeding programs which were federally funded. Looks like it will be very similar to what the Penn Vet Working Dog Center already has with their breeding program. They took over the TSA breeding program when that was disbanded and now have Dutch Shepherds, Malinois, German shepherds, and Labradors.
From what I have seen and heard first hand their program is very successful. To see something like that be expanded to a national level I think would be a very good thing for working dogs if it is successful.

Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 17 November 2018 - 15:11

so if this can be done in europe, I see no reason why it cannot be done in the USA, but people have to look at the dogs qualities first and foremost, and start by getting TOP females, instead of looking to breed to the hot male of the moment.

 

TRUTH!!

 

ha, just wanted to try and make that a live link as I do not seem to have a knack for such.โ€‹

Grasshopper, you are learning!  Wink Smile

by ValK on 17 November 2018 - 16:11

prey/hunt is the easyest drive to reproduce, where hardness, courage and civil aggression are a bit more difficult to produce largely available in a litter.

i cannot agree. it should work the same way as breeding for prey. 
these qualities can be obtained in greater amount each litter, bred toward higher aggression, dominance. 
as i see it, in the way of such breeding are main obstacle - no monetary return on failed (due to unmanageable aggression) specimens.

susie

by susie on 17 November 2018 - 17:11

Programs like this effectivly work for cattle...

but dog programs are different, not because of the dogs, but

- because of the expected traits
- because of the people involved

Why?

The traits a working dog needs are the sum of a lot of single traits, difficult to measure.
Dogs are not cattle living on the field.
Socialisation and imprinting are very important.

That said the person evaluating the dogs needs to be very knowledgable, and the "puppy raisers" need to do their best according to the later goal.

Doable? Sure.
Difficult? Sure.

Does it make sense?

I am not sure. There are good breeders out there, but the US seems to prefer to import.

This may be because the different local institutions don't have enough knowledge about dogs, and because of that do prefer to make use of brokers.

Although the US does produce more dogs than any other country of the world there don't seem to be local brokers looking for local dogs able to do the job?!?

And in case there is a "good" puppy sport or pet people are willing to pay more than government?

Realistically I guess European green but already tested dogs will always be cheaper than American bred and raised dogs...

I hope I am wrong.

 

 

by ValK on 17 November 2018 - 18:11

susie, if you add shipping cost, the import from Europe isn't cheaper than locally bred dogs. reliance on import perhaps has more psychological factor, sort of "neighbor's grass always seems more greener".
in regards of quality, as long as monetary value will remains attached to dogs, breeders will breed pet quality GSDs, because that is where main market.

and doesn't matter it's Europe or North America.


Jessejones

by Jessejones on 17 November 2018 - 18:11

All good points made...

Detection dogs can be any dog with the talent, duration, and temperament to do this work. It does not have to be breed specific, or even a breed...it can be any mix breed dog too.

With every breeding program like this...out of every litter, maybe one is chosen....the rest will have to become pets (doing sport or not). So per litter, for every one dog, you may have 6-8 pups that need just homes.
Is this really needed? In my opinion, no.

We have a virtually unlimited resource of dogs in shelters in the USA.
A million are killed in shelters every year (officially around 700,000) in the US.
Many of them would excel at detection work.

To find the best dogs for detection work, we do need to get more qualified people to learn to to do systematic TESTING of all of our available dogs in shelters. (I think Rik mentioned it and Susie mentioned testing.)

If shelters don’t allow testing...that needs to change.

susie

by susie on 17 November 2018 - 19:11

Yes, Jesse, it's about testing...
Knowledge, experience, the will to do so...

ValK, an imported green, but tested dog will still be cheaper.

American bred dog :
- Puppy price
- Puppy raising (food, time, effort)
- Health tests (HD/ED , whatever)
- Working ability tests
- Vet bills ( and be it vaccinations only )
- The people that are involved in this
project

A flight doesn't matter ๐Ÿ˜Ž

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