by Rhumphrey7 on 08 November 2018 - 03:11
I bought a German Shepherd puppy from a breeder in South Florida. He has been diagnosed with Entropion. I subsequently bought his imported grand dam from another very well known breeder for a breeding dam before my puppy's diagnosis. The breeder told me at the time of purchase that the "grand dam" dog had a tear duct problem and that I had to daily put eye drops in her eyes due to this issue. He said he had spent much money having this condition treated by his vet. He stated the issue wasn't genetic. I trusted his reputation. My vet stated that if any 1st year vet would have known the dog had Entropion and would have told the breeder it was genetic. He stated the breeder had to have known. Otherwise the "grand dam" dog was healthy. Today I found out my puppy's dam also has Entropion. This 2nd breeder from which my puppy came from states he wasn't aware of the genetic disease when he had this litter. This is now three generations with the genetic disease. Now I must neuter the dog, pay for eye surgury and change my plans for training, showing and subsequent stud service. I believe the breeder who had the grandam knew the dog had the disease when he sold me the dog. Should I expect the breeders who sold me the dogs to "step up" and do something about the dogs I have bought or should I write it off as a learning experience? What would you do? Would you post these facts to pedigrees online? Breeders would then be outed.
by Hundmutter on 08 November 2018 - 08:11
Irrespective of doing so: Would I expect recompense from the breeder ? That depends on the content of whatever Contract you have with this breeder, and on what State or Federal legislation you can call on, to use a small claims procedure against them if that seems to only way to get a vets' fees contribution from the breeder. Others actually in the US are better placed to advise you than I. Be prepared for the breeder to say they will take the dog puppy back and replace it, instead of giving you any money, however.
As to your loss of possible future earnings, for breeding and stud fees etc, please do remember that there is no way to guarantee that your dogs would have grown up or otherwise proved suitable for breeding with, even if there had been no entropian.
by DuganVomEichenluft on 08 November 2018 - 11:11
by Prager on 08 November 2018 - 16:11
I did not know that neutering treats inverted eyelid. In pups who are not brachycephalic as they grow the condition may get better if the condition is not too severe. That is because as the nose grows the facial anatomy will rearrange. I have seen this in Rottweilers where the condition is more common. Thus I would wait. I would look at the parents and grandparents with this condition and expect the same progress as they have. As soon as the pup is at an appropriate age, I would do surgery which should take care of the problem. I would not breed the dog but I would also not neuter it. There is no reason to neuter the dog if you are a responsible dog owner. i would enjoy intact dog as a natural and unaltered animal and would not let ANYONE including the vet tell me that it is "responsible' thing to do. personally, I would ask them if neutering is so good if they got their balls cot off?
Anyway. As far as the breeder goes I would talk to them and see what they will do as far as breeding of their dogs goes. I would be friendly and not antagonistic. I would use words like that you need help and then I would see what that help would be. I would NOT threaten because that is usually the end of the friendly and reasonable relationship. It is always best to solve the problem in a friendly manner.
This is an obvious and harmful genetic flaw which is rare in GSDs and should not be introduced into the gene-pool and should be eliminated asap. If they somehow convince you that they will not breed these lines any more I would leave it at that. If they blow you off and breed it or lie about it I would post it on the internet. As far as them making it good by you as a business deal. I would accept these options.
1/ Get another healthy pup. But if you want to breed then I would stay away from that option from this breeder unless you know 100% that the condition is not part of the genetic makeup of this new pup. I would absolutely not return the pup. I would keep it on love it. He is your pup and he loves you so try to love him at least 1/2 as much. :)
2/ I would go by what the warranty says. THAT is your repercussion. If the warranty does not cover such a condition then you should not buy the pup from a breeder with inadequate warranty. Live and learn.
3/ ask for money back for the pup and
4/ask if they would pay for the surgery. Shop around for good but financially reasonable vet and tell them how much it would cost and see what they will do about it.
5/ If the condition was obvious at the time of purchase then you can probably take them to the small claims court in the jurisdiction where the transaction occurred which would probably be in Florida. If such an option is for you impossible to follow then go on with your life and forget about it.
As I say. Love your dog and try to learn from this and try to stay from negativity in your life with the dog,...God knows there is plenty of it out there all ready. The dog may turn to be a great dog,...most dogs who have rough start do. Train him and enjoy him and love him. he is your responsibility now.
by Rhumphrey7 on 14 November 2018 - 00:11
When I have three vets stating the both dogs have Entropion on their letterhead, then I will post the pedigree. Not to be vindictive, but due to my love of the breed. Money plays no part in this issue. The dogs are suffering. I was seeking a stud prospect when I bought this dog. It will be obvious who the breeder is and people will be shocked at the pedigree. Before I would ever do this however, I will have facts and only facts. I am only expecting the breeders to be responsible. There are already seven offspring already listed in PDB. One has already produced a litter with the defect. (my dog) I realize that all my not have the defect evident but they are highly probable to be carriers. I know there are many more offspring not listed in PDB but AKC will have the entire registered list. I only want the owners to be aware and AKC will assist me with that notification.
I believe in grace and mercy but someone has to speak for the victims and I do mean the dogs. I am aware that neutering the dog will not solve the problem but the only way to eliminate the possibility of such a magnificent animal at first appearance from passing the defect is to neuter him. This was a great stud prospect and he will make a great pet and companion when I place him. But only after two surgeries. Both breeders have been notified and blew me off stating my vet must be incompetent. She has one of the highest reputations in our state both as a vet and a breeder of world class dogs. They will be hard press to dispute the three vets I am getting written diagnosis from. You might ask why I would make such a big deal, you evidently havn't seen a dog suffer with this disease.
by Rhumphrey7 on 17 November 2018 - 20:11
Well I have now contacted all the breeders who will be impacted by posting of these pedigrees. The responsible breeders on the sire's side have been very open and truly want whats best for the breed. Having said that, and with the diagnosis of my grandson and grandam both still in my possession, it is evident the disease comes from the dam side of the breeding pair originating in the US by one imported bitch. This imported bitch was "grafental" top and bottom. I have always loved and owned "grafental" dogs. I cast no accusations toward any line of dogs, certainly not the grafental lines. I have had, and still do have other healthy dogs that are "grafental" bred. I realize that one most have solid factual evidence when handling a situation such as this. I have been advised by an AKC representative and admins from PDB to post on the pedigrees only the facts. The breeders of the carriers of the disease who sold me the affected dogs with the disease will not contact me or have a professional conversation about this matter. Before I post the pedigrees I want all to know that this disease is NOT ON THE SIRE SIDE! When you see the pedigree, please know that I have spoken with the sire's owners and they have been very co-opoerative with me. I do not want them hurt or their breeding programs hurt by my posting. It's because of this concern for the innocent sires owners that I am struggling with the decision to release the pedigrees, but I also feel that if the owners of offspring aren't made aware, there will be future dogs produced who will suffer with this terrible disease. I have contacted two vets who said that many times it may require two or more surgeries in the life of the dog to maintain the correction of the disease. Thanks for the feedback.
by hexe on 17 November 2018 - 21:11
by Hundmutter on 17 November 2018 - 23:11
by sentinelharts on 20 November 2018 - 08:11
You called me a few days back and explained your situation and we talked a bit about my experience with the sire side. I think you have the best of intentions and that your feeling that this is an ethical dilemma is founded. I greatly appreciate your concern for the potential damage that a breeder may incur but I think it is something that must be shared
For all of those who are following along on this thread. I am the current owner of the sire of this man's youngest dog (that he refers to as the grandson) The sire of the grandson is Held vom Kranich's Hof. Mr Humphrey and I talked quite a bit about his situation and I shared with him that I owned both Held's sire (Bill vom Kranich's Hof) and Dam (Mira von den grauen von Monstab), purchased after Held was produced. The breeders in Germany did two breedings between Bill and Mira there. I purchased one male from their first breeding which was the F Litter ( Fritz) long before Held was imported to Florida.
I repeated that breeding between Bill and Mira four additional times here in the US.
They produced litters of 1- Ezekiel, 3 Glory Grace and Gritt, 2 Loki and Liberty and 2 Poseidon and Prometheus. I know where each puppy I produced currently is, I kept Loki and Poseidon.
Neither Fritz nor Held have Entropion and none of the puppies produced in my program had or have entropion.
I purchased Held in the past 12 months (He came from Florida to CA) and I have bred him once to Jina von Weltwitz and in the litter of 8, none have any sign of Entropion.
Bill has also sired multiple other litters and to date has not produced any puppies with Entropion
I am happy Mr Humphrey shared his pup's medical condition with me and it is something I will look for in future breedings coming out of those lines. I also feel that if his pup was the only puppy known to have entropion in generations that it would be a fluke but since he had knowledge that it is present in his male, the male's mother and grandmother that he had a clear genetic medical condition.
I told him not to worry about damaging my program and that he was doing the right thing.
SentinelHarts German Shepherds
by mrdarcy on 20 November 2018 - 09:11