Inappropriate Agression , but is this a fear biter? - Page 6

I am wondering about the significance of the dog holding the trainers arm with crossed forefeet...I think this is important but don't know for sure how to read it.

I have seen this done out of desire to dominate 
AND
I have seen it done out of fear...like when a pup or young dog tries to hold onto or climb up your leg if he is afraid or spooked.

What thinks everyone?
 

He's fighting with the only thing he can use...his front legs.

Thanks Joan
Just hanging on to try to bite? No deeper meaning? Could be.

In fight drive, aggression can't be expressed by biting, so, yes, holding the man from getting away. IMO

Jo I think your opinion is interesting. ..... I take that into consideration ...

What I will say , and this is subjective .. the dogs we worked in muzzle if they were confident , wanted to bite and engage a helper /decoy , muzzle or not would still be on the offensive. For example they would come full force catapulting and nose you like a battling ram , they would be unrelenting and persistent, , they would at times body check you, they would be all over you if you fell to the ground, would chase you if you ran etc etc. That is to say that they try to problem solve very differently than this dog just standing on you .They are active , not passive about their goal , and their feelings , thoughts and intentions exhibited by those different behaviors demonstrate a whole different state than this dog at that particular time in that particular situation in that particular video. So , to me a dog with a lot of hutzpah , this is almost , I didn't write it is , but is is like ' learned helplessness '. The dog just just got confounded standing on the man . Not trying to convince anyone that the dog is this or that. Simply coming at this from a different angle to describe what I see in one specific video and one specific behavioral event of that dog. . So , I end this post by asking : Is this really a picture of a  'confident' canine doing muzzle work ? Even if you argue this dog is sound/ unsound ..  is this behavior of a confident aggressive dog ,and picture  behaviorally of a confident self assured canine . A dog that just stands on a person ..  do you honestly  really think it is  self assured /confident in that one / first video ?  BTW , a dog's behavior is not static , it's dynamic . 

 

   For novices readding this thread to realize and think about :  That is to say ,  cannot some dogs  show confiedence in one specific context and then that same dog show the lack  of confidence / self assureness in another completely different context ?   Also , consider :  Sometimes  the most dangersous dog of all , is that dog that in some contexts looks / behaves   normal but in another completely different context that  dog shows it's true colors by it's behavior , sort to speak ,  it's unsoundness. Sometimes we cannot determine what a dog is by 1 video , sometimes we can . 

„Is this really a picture of a 'confident' canine doing muzzle work ?“

If you ask that specific question...No he doesnt look confident, he looks frustrated. - (but does look confident and calm-ish ,for a mal, once muzzle is off IMO.)

This is why I say...we can‘t evaluate this dog 100% by just this video. It would do a diservice to the dog and his owner to call the dog unsound by this little vid and by not knowing and observing more. To call the dog unsound would mean that he can not be re-trained or rehabilitated, but that he has a faulty mind that can not be changed. Harsh call without more info.

As to the way he acts while muzzled and leashed...and with the trainer standing still, and other people standing close by,,, he can not go after the man really much differently. If the decoy and dog were running in vid, it may look different. He might bring a decoy down and ram him.

And, to me this is one of the most important things, we do not know if a muzzle was just quickly popped on the dog for the FIRST time, causing confusion in the dog...or, has the dog been systematically worked in, and conditioned to muzzle work before, therefore alleviating the confusion of a first time muzzle.

I agree it is an interesting video and good discussion.

Jesse I'd support all you said there^, except for the assumption that the dog has ever been worked. I don't think we have one thing in that video which confirms that. Just because it's a Maligator does not mean the owners have done manwork or sports with him. Even if the video was made in the US, that would be true.These people are in France, don't forget.

Centurian is surely right about the appearance of confusion; and IMO you are both right in that there is just not enough information to make anything but a superficial judgement re what is going on in this dog's head, whether that is some kind of fear reaction (which I agree with most here is doubtful); or whether it is a schooled and 'dominant' dog in that usually accepted sense; or whether (as I increasingly strongly suspect) it is a dog who is acting in a dominant manner because he is confused and does not know what is required of him.

HM: Jesse I'd support all you said there^, except for the assumption that the dog has ever been worked.

I did initially think that perhaps he had some bite training due to the fact he only went after the trainers arms...but someone mentioned (sorry, can’t remember who..maybe Joan?) that even dogs not trained in bw, in her experience, sometimes only go after hands/arms...which might be plausible too. So true, there is not much to go on here. He did do the stand/sit/down pretty snappy and well and unstressed.... until he lost interest in the trainer and wanted to go back to owners off camera.

But just because they are in France (or Belgium) doesnt mean no bite work...French, Belgium and Modio Ring is pretty popular  there - if that is what you meant in your comment. But maybe there are French ring sport people on this thread and can comment.

I just wanted to be clear...It is pretty obvious and true there is an aggression issue, I don’t mean to imply there isn’t.
I wouldn’t want this dog in my family, that’s for sure!
But he may be great in other things like LE street work and with the right handler.

The original question was if fear is the motive for the aggression....which I don’t really think is the case due to body language...but confusion is certainly there, only we don’t know why it is there (first time muzzle use?) as we only have this small window.

If he is unsound in nature, meaning an unfixable screw loose and he can therefore not be rehabilitated, can’t be revealed in this vid in my opinion.

Every person , dog and situation is unique. Every time i meet a person or a dog the first thought that comes to my mind is from their experiences , what can I learn from that dog to better myself . I often see similarities and I see the differences. .... So how do we understand this Malinois from the 1st video [ only ] ?

Why did I agree with Duke so quickly ? I tell you why and how I look at canines ...
...
I have just been arrested. no one knows what kind of young man I am . I could be a tough fighting street punk , or a wimpy geeky kid. But : Every one sees me being escorted by the police in handcuffs [ that is code for a dog in a muzzle ] and tied [ that is code for confined by a leash ] up so I can't run away . Now an unknown person approaches me with unknown intent. So I straight arm that person to make sure I am alright [ that is code for the dog holding the man at bay ] . This is likened to that first video with the Malinois. I am uncomfortable being handcuffed , tied up and I am confronted. Am I thinking of dominating that man in front of me. IMOp of course not. I just want to keep the situation safe and I'll straight arm him . I don't understand the need for this confrontation and I have enough problems being cuffed and tied by the police. . All this makes me feel very very uncomfortable and I am not secure in this situation that I have no complete control over, even with straight arming that other man . Now I get agitated , frustrated and I start verbalizing, I want out of this . I can't hit [ code for bite] I can't attack efficiently nor will I try . Dominating , is the furthest thing from my mind . Straight arm is sufficient for now because I am compromised . What is perhaps the closest treasonable thought if you do not think of being proactive and offensive , defensive ? : That thought would be : how do I get out of this . How to ? ,get this gerk out of my face and get free from this situation. I'd like to ditch the cops to if I could. I don't know , exactly how to do this or what the hell to do.

I am confused , so is the dog, I am frustrated , so is the dog. I am insecure , unsure and concerned , so is the dog. I am thinking and looking to solve this , an out from this situation and so is the dog. I don't think this has anything to do with Dominance . Am I a sound person in this story or the Malinois , as I wrote , maybe , maybe not , because you don't know anything else about me and my history. You don't know why I am even arrested or what I am capable of or not capable of . From that first video alone can you say for sure this dog is sound or unsound ... no we cannot .

This is what I thought when I looked ' into ' the dog. Not by allowing myself to be thinking like a human sand trying to describe the video with labels but more so by allowing myself to think and feel like that dog in that context / situation. This is what dogs and people have taught me to do ... see the world , feel the world through their eyes.

Good analogy Cent.

I often think of Planet of the Apes (the original 1968) when I see dogs being handled.

Remember how the apes treated Charlotte Heston and the humans?
Leashes around the neck and cages and lots of rough pulling too and fro...and he also could not talk...but atleast he understood the apes when they spoke.

I often imagine that dogs go through this state of confusion too. And, they sure handle it better than we would... if the roles were reversed.