Inappropriate Agression , but is this a fear biter? - Page 1

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by Glock on 29 April 2018 - 11:04

I recently came across this video of an inappropriately aggressive malinois.
The dog seems to be obviously very willing to do serious harm to this neutral stranger. The dog mounts the stranger almost daring him , with tail wagging the dog does not seem to have a body language of wanting to run away. Is this display of aggression born out of weak nerve and is a fear biter being masked here?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SDt8HnyxHK0


by duke1965 on 29 April 2018 - 12:04

 dog in video is not secure of itself, does what allways worked for him obviously, now muzzled and confronted by someone who isnt afraid he looks little confused, now after the stranger is not strange anymore(in vid around 2 min mark) you can see changed bodylanguage,tail etc. would say that this type of dog can be fearbiter, but also can be good streetdog, all depending on how worked from the get go

Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 29 April 2018 - 13:04

Duke, my understanding of a fear biter is a dog that would shy away from a human, and bite if cornered, or someone wanted to pet it.

This dog's body language doesn't look fearful. His tail is wagging, and the way he's putting his body and head over the man's body and arm says to me he is trying to dominate and take control of the situation, and is frustrated that he can't.

I think he's dominant, not fearful.

So, I would like to know what you see that makes you say fear biter. Trying to learn here. I know you have a lot more experience with protection dogs than I do.

by Glock on 29 April 2018 - 14:04

Sun I agree the body language seem to suggest that wants to dominate the person from the very beginning of the interaction. Seems like social aggression .

by joanro on 29 April 2018 - 14:04

I don't see a fear biter, but a socially aggressive dog, or at least a dog with zero tolerance to having a stranger inside his space.
He is obviously, to me, attempting to dominate the man with his entire body, and is frustrated that he cannot bite the man.
Looks like hours of 'desensitising ' and exhaustion, the dog finally gives in. It's obvious the man is fully aware that the dog is not completely won over, and a wrong move by the man will set the dog on him.....and I bet that this dog would 'get even' for being forced to tolerate what he perceives as an insult to his ego. 

I like the dog. My Igrochka jipo-me, similarly, never ever aggressive towards family members, but to Grochki, she don't need no stinkin' strangers touching her! Unless I told her to when at the vet's, while muzzled.

 

by duke1965 on 29 April 2018 - 14:04

maybe read my post again, I say looks like he is doing what allways worked for him, quite often these dogs are  unsure and growl at what comes at them, people back off, it works and the dog learns simple pavlov behaviour, growl and the people that make me insecure go away, eventually they start believing it themselves

now look at his tailset when his agression is gone, does that look like a confident dog to you ??

by joanro on 29 April 2018 - 15:04

Well, I was answering the op's question, but I read your post.
First, the video is very much edited. I don't understand the language, so don't know what they were saying,which could have shed some light on the scenario. So I'm left to speculate.
The tail set could be result after the dog had the crap beat out of him for all we know, but the dog did warn with growls...the video starts while the interaction is already in progress....so speculating, maybe the dog tried to bite before and the muzzle prevented him, so he is 'holding' the man firmly in his front legs, preventing escape and forcing confrontation with the man 'eye ball to eye ball' , dog looking directly into the man's face. A dog lacking self confidence would not be so blatenly forward and face to face especially when the dog is not cornered.
The tail set could be an indicator of shear exhaustion. My impression is that this session took place over a period of many hours. 

At the end of the video, the dog's tail is up and he appears somewhat relaxed.

Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 29 April 2018 - 15:04

Joan, the language is French, and mostly the man is telling the dog to sit, lie down, etc. Not a lot else that I can make out.

They did 3 sessions with the dog, the first was at 9 am, second at 4 pm, and the third was the next day at 4 pm. I wish I could understand what the man is saying at the start of the second session, but I can't make it out, despite playing it back numerous times. As you can probably tell, in the third session, he is giving the dog lots of praise when it does what he asks him to do. I would say the dog seems a bit stressed in the final session, judging by his breathing and body language.


by joanro on 29 April 2018 - 15:04

Sunny! Itas obvious he was giving commands to the dog.
But I was talking about the conversation between the men at the begining.
Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 29 April 2018 - 15:04

It is possible that this dog IS confused; seems to me it is a fairly typical scenario of someone taking an adult dog that has become inappropriately aggressive to all and sundry, to a trainer to 'sort out' for them. So not a cowardly dog as such, but yes a 'dominant' character made more so by the way it has been (poorly) raised and trained by its owner, not showing it boundaries. I know - I'm reading a lot into this I can't prove; but it does have a lot of similarities to cases I have seen before (and got to know a whole background to).

It is a pity there is a gap between the 'meet & greet' session and the trainer being on his knees in a field with the dog - I would like to have seen a bit BEFORE the vid starts, and the 'missing' section, and anything else they have left out between that and the end.

Would not set any store by what was said by the smirking man at the beginning, he'd just left something in the car ! What I want to hear is the conversation between the guy initially holding onto the dog at the beginning and the main guy.

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