Interesting view of the GSD - Page 1

Pedigree Database


by KYLE on 09 April 2018 - 00:04

For the uninitiated this is an interesting article by Mr. Hoffman. The article covers the GSD, work show split and what may be able to bridge the gap.


by Hundmutter on 09 April 2018 - 05:04

It is an opinion. It is as interesting as other opinion-pieces on the subject. There is nothing new about it. It is not even a very well written/'discussed' opinion (and I am not talking about quality of translation).
Now : do I entirely trust the opinion of someone who says...
"The proportion of dogs considered Show lines lies at about 65-70%; the Working lines at about 20-25%, and those 'anotated neutral' at roughly 10%"

65 + 20 + 10 = 95; 70 +25 +10 = 110 %   One hundred and ten percent ?

and 'anotated neutral' ? By who ? How ?

Sorry Kyle, I realise you have not really commented on the content, but by bringing it here as 'interesting for the uninitiated' you are setting it up as something that it is not, IMO.

by duke1965 on 09 April 2018 - 05:04

if breeding goals and therefore selection of stud and pups are opposing each other, there is no way to close any gap,even more so when there is another split in the making on top of that one


by charlie319 on 06 May 2018 - 16:05

I think by "neutral", he means what we in the US call BYB...

1- Show lines

Selection of the breed partner
determined by the anatomical criteria

Less attention given to working

Orientation to the show

Marketing/customer base

2 - Working lines

Selection of the breed partner
determined by the working

Less attention given to show

Orientation to working events

Marketing/customer base.

3 - Neutral

Selection of parents done randomly and not goal-oriented

No conflict of interest

Orientation towards their
own dogs

Marketing within their own region or circle of friends.

by Swarnendu on 06 May 2018 - 20:05


When someone says one is 65-70%, another is 20-25% and roughly 10% is neither here nor there, I don't find any reason why they shouldn't add up to 100%.

What about 65+25+10 or 70+20+10?

There could have been many reasons to refute that article, but this one was not one of them.


by Hundmutter on 07 May 2018 - 06:05

Swarn, you are getting as pedantic as Les; it was more the vagueness of the author's figures I reacted against, than whether they could actually be manipulated to = 100.

Didn't have the time or the inclination to refute the opinion statements in this article point by point ... but charlie319 points up some more vagueness; and Duke is of course correct.

Its just not all that well written.  There are many pieces in existance that it would be better to call novices' attention to.

by Gustav on 07 May 2018 - 11:05

I think that the article is very good, from a good source, with good information. It reflects the big picture. It uses facts and examples to support suppositions as opposed to opinions that are generated by likes or lack of knowledge. No article is infallible, but overall, I would say Mr Hoffman has a better understanding and knowledge,( and thus opinion) than any of us here on the forum!

by Centurian on 07 May 2018 - 12:05

I am on board with Hund and Duke...

To little .... to late. Not to mention the protection phase that currently exists to get an IPO is nothing but close to protection . With just about any GS you can train it to do an IPO track in a few months , no difficulty there . So Universal .. the whole test for working traits is but a hypocrisy . They are simply polluted minimal requirements . Aside from protection , just about anything any dog could do.

Genetics... Once you have lost certain working traits in the breed/lines there is just no getting them back ... Genetics does not work by mixing matching and adding like you were making as recipe. . Right now , those Show Line GS are a whole different genetic than when they started out , You can consider them a subset class of the GS. Don't get me wrong I have had some of the best WL and SL that anyone could ask for by their criteria. For the record I love both and have SL and WL . The article was fancy shmancy , but let's face truth and reality about the GS. 20 /15 years ago , perhaps but most likely the split is so vast that unification of both is nearly impossible. Last comment : Just try to separate people from their money ... and you will see what result as far as brining the SL and WL together is futile now. After all it is not simply the dogs that problem or that caused the difference.. it was people and the ,love of money that caused the difference .

  BTW - that  article was not that brilliant ... IMOp


by susie on 07 May 2018 - 18:05

This guy is one of the best known guys within my Landesgroup. He was a succesful handler at several BSPs and he won the European Championships ( now WUSV ).
He was our Landesgroup trainer for 28 years.
He established the RHW in SV almost on his own, still fighting for it...
Besides that he was a working judge, a small breeder, and has always been a good friend.
I guess he forgot more about German dogs than any one of you will ever learn.

This article was written almost 2 decades ago, his English may not be the best ( be thankful he made the attempt to translate at all ).
He tried to point out the different development of working/showlines, the statistics are well searched, easy to read.
He believes in GSDS able to work and able to show, and he tried to explain that it's wrong to breed for just one goal - the "universal" thought, the "original" thought...
And - "neutral" dogs for us are the ones just bred for being good overall GSDS, name it a blend of just normal looking, normal working dogs, not bred for a single goal in mind.

by Gustav on 07 May 2018 - 20:05

I titled under him about 20 years ago. Had a chance to talk with him and listen to him at club dinner.
It’s not a matter of I like what I read, it’s a matter that most of what he wrote about the past is the same things I’ve been harping on for years. So it reflects a lot of what I have seen. Now in perspective to SL dogs, although I don’t think they cannot be resurrected, I do think that the mindset of the breeder-has to be on strong working genetics for 3-4 generations(that are not SL)  and not prioritizing the Black and red color. I’m sure in Germany there are still some small pockets of breeders that have SL dogs that still have strong Mutz/Quanto strengths as opposed to Canto/Quanto. These dogs won’t win at BZS anymore, but when paired with good genetics from other lines can resurrect that type in my opinion. Unfortunately, they are only a small remnant of the SL of today.


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