by BlackMalinois on 10 October 2017 - 16:10
We can have comments about the showline GSD in protection that fails , but what about this working lines GSD @ this level ....? I believe this are not all the dogs that faiil.....
I read a lot of comments @ social media positive but also negative about the dutch decoys I was in the stadium last week I,m proud for my litle country decoys did a great job.
by DuganVomEichenluft on 10 October 2017 - 17:10
As for the decoys, I think they did a good job.
by Smiley on 10 October 2017 - 17:10
I think IPO is just a "sport'. It should not be used to determine proper character. Trainers can "condition" dogs to perform on an IPO field or any other sport. Like other sports, IPO can be a good tool to weed out bad nerve but not necessarily declare good nerve.
However, a good breeder knows the temperament of his/her dogs by observing their reactions from many stimuli across the dogs life. They do not need a ribbon or podium spot to prove the dog is a good dog. Breeders are the gatekeepers and I mean that they are the last line of defense against improper breeding and a good breeder takes nerve very seriously (regardless of a dog's success in performance). They do not need a ribbon or podium title to know that.
I would venture that most of the best tempered GSDs do not do IPO. People like to say that IPO proves a dog's breeding worth but I don't believe that is accurate. A solid tempered dog will always be able to do IPO but not every IPO dog is a solid tempered dog! Of course, a solid tempered dog that does well in IPO that shows proper character in a variety of life situations would be one ideal!
However, I also do not believe a "real" GSD that is professed here as the "be all and end all" is proper type. A GSD should be able to be taken anywhere and be around anyone and maintain proper character without fear of inappropriate aggression. I define Proper GSD type as a mentally stable GSD, healthy, moderate in build and not prone to extremes, that is social, athletic, smart, and versatile and able to protect his/her owner should the need arise. They can perform successfully in any venture asked of them and they are the best gosh dang all around family dogs on the planet!!!! I think we should always remember BALANCE when talking about a GSD!
I think a good question to ask ourselves is IPO the only way to preserve protection drive and ability to actually bite if need be? Is it the best way? Could a dog have a stable protection drive and prove able to defend his family without IPO? I venture to guess that our breed would still survive and solid tempered dogs dispalying proper character would still exist without IPO. It's up to breeders to breed correctly.
The breeder I acquired my foundation bitch from was an early importer of DDR dogs. The dogs at her kennel do not have ScH or IPO titles but she tested the hell out of them on the farm for good nerve....and culled. I know a nasty word but necessary in all good breeding. When I stepped on the IPO training field, I was next to multiple generations of ScH 3 dogs on both sides and yet..despite her "poor" pedigree (read lack of ScH titles) my girl was the only one to not bat at an eye at whip and stick hits. I never did title her but I also don't need a title to tell me she is a good dog...and I don't just use her IPO experience as a benchmark for her worth. Yes, her bites were full. Yes, she always outed. She never displayed handler aggreesion. She could care less if the whip and stick hit her. But, just as valuable to me...she is amazing with my son and other kids that runt hrough yard. She calmly lays in kayak as we float across the water. I can take her anywhere at anytime and never doubt her character. To me, that is more important in determing worth....(yes, she has 8 titles but I value nothing more than my observation of her character over 6 years).
IPO is a fun sport as is herding, agility, dock diving, nose work, barn hunt, etc....All these sports prove performance ability but not nerve or breeding quality. Just one piece of the puzzle! That is just my two cents....!!
by joanro on 10 October 2017 - 18:10
Blackmalinois, can you post dogs that did not fail with this same decoy?
Looks like on the reattack, he had the sleeve tight to his side, so a dog did not not see it as being offered.
Also, on the long bite, he is bent over and the sleeve held very low, as opposed to the decoys in IPO are standing upright with the sleeve offered up to the dog.
Just an observation, since majority of the dogs missed the same way. Unless all these dogs that failed were all trained at the same club, with the same decoy, it's doubtful that so many would have the same problems....without taking into consideration the common denominator; same decoy in each fail.
by BlackMalinois on 10 October 2017 - 18:10
@Joanro I noticed some dogs who are realy afraid body language from dogs don,t lie,even in the re attack long distance can,t take the pressure from the helper
Some people will call this training conditioning issue, but I call this also genetics that we can,t change
My advice train with some different unknown fair helpers and areas who go the max even until 120 percent don,t be easy satisfied. But I have not to tell this to this level competition handlers....
Weakness you wouldn,t see with a familar helpers or club.... challenge your dog to a different level and see how realy strong your dog is......or not....
or you will see what can happen.....( But all this dogs have experience with different helpers I guess?)
Most dogs can stand in easy train prey scenarios, it will be different if there come some hard pressure and unknown situations here you will select the real stronger dogs from the more weaker..
by joanro on 10 October 2017 - 18:10
Black mal, you are advising as if these are only club level dogs. One must assume that at this level, all these dogs have been challenged by many different decoys at many trials, in order to even get to this level.
So, I don't believe that lack of experience with different decoys is the problem, but I do believe that the way this decoy works is what became an issue for so many dogs. He doesn't work like IPO helpers work. The dogs are IPO, not knpv trained.
by BlackMalinois on 10 October 2017 - 18:10
Joan my point is @ this are the creme the de la creme GSD and /handlers in the world
this kind of dogs in the video sorry but some of them are not good enough for such a BIG podium IMO....
Who am I to give advice ,,,.......,that was not my intention only a observation what I see
by ValK on 10 October 2017 - 19:10
i don't see any wrong doing by decoys. frankly i wouldn't like to see than that decoy will do the life for my dog easy. if there necessity for it, then my dog worth nothing.
Smiley you're pretty much right in what you said, except for breeders. sure they'are gatekeepers but they also operate in socium with it's rules and punishment. why commercial breeders would breed DDR type, not only for their looks but for DDR's temperament standart, if this can put them to face complains, returns, law suits? after all their market not a military, law enforcement, security business but average Joe and Mary, who's buying pup for themselves or their kids.
BlackMalinois i guess the problem arises from "positive training" mantra. dogs isn't human and lives by rules which differ from human rules. what i noticed and somewhere here told it before - all dogs you see at sport competitions, acts on basis of playfulness.
nothing to wonder why they fail when something goes off of familiar to them scenario,
by joanro on 10 October 2017 - 19:10
I don't believe the decoy is wrong, just that his style is too different for what the IPO trained dog is conditioned to cope with.
When I trained my dogs for schH, we did different scenarios with them so that they would be able to think on their feet, instead of only rote behavior. Too much repetition, creates fails as seen in that op vid when the decoy is off the page to the dogs' perspective. I got my dogs off the field and into the woods periodically to keep them thinking.
Here, as an example, is my male at under two years of age, a week or so before I trialed him for sch 1 title. I released him a hundred yards from where the decoy was hiding...he had to find him by trailing as I kept him out of sight of the decoy as the he left to 'hide' up the tree.
by duke1965 on 10 October 2017 - 19:10
I dont know which dogs/countries are the ones that are not up for the game at this level on the video,but one has to realize that there are multiple countries were there are only one or two IPO3 dogs to fill the WUSV team, sso they dont have to compete at high level to go to WUSV, they just go, some of them dont have the options or helpers to train and work at highest level of pressure.
any comparisin to showline failures is stupid
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