Is there a registry that shows the top working line GS traits - Page 1

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by Rastamon on 26 October 2016 - 00:10

Just wondering if anyone on the forum has started a registry or know of any that highlights or track the dominant traits of the top stud male or female going back say....4-6 generations? If so, can you please share this or point me in the direction where I could find one. If there was one available, one could easily see if these traits are being passed on to their offsprings etc. Traits I am referring to could be, civil/prey drives, hard/soft, health issues, physical deformities or strengths, etc.
Like say, (just as an example) Grief Lantal passed down hardness/civil, maybe handler aggressiveness, low prey drive, more food/ball drive down to progeny of Mink, Lewis, Pike, etc. Not to mention the mating that carried X traits to produce Mink, Lewis, etc. that was complementary to keep or enhance certain traits but defuse certain traits.

I hope you can see where I'm going with this and hope that we can see this mainly in a linebreeding situation. Thanks ahead of time for your input. Please, no bashing or confrontation here. Either there is or isn't one.



Q Man

by Q Man on 26 October 2016 - 02:10

Working-dog.eu

by Rastamon on 26 October 2016 - 16:10

Thanks for the info. Q Man. Can you please give me a bit more details as to where that might be on Working-dog.eu? I did go onto the site but wasn't finding the information.

by Bavarian Wagon on 26 October 2016 - 17:10

You'll never find anything about those types of traits because they're so subjective and based on the person's experience who is looking at the dog/dogs produced. No way will you ever get everyone to agree that dog X passed trait Y to all of it's progeny. Your best bet is to just ask questions in forums and in real life and get the information knowing that it might be subjective or biased based on who is answering the question.

by Rastamon on 26 October 2016 - 18:10

Thanks BW. My thoughts were that some registry probably existed by either an individual tracking top dogs for their own general use, who has either gathered this information from years of interaction with the forum or together with the aid of information on a koer report(hope I spelt that correctly) has made up their own spreadsheet ...like Darryl did on hips etc. and could share that with the forum.

Just because someone, even the Koer report judge who has put his/her opinion down as a note on a dog that is qualified for breeding, of course...that is their opinion. But we all have to start somewhere.
So, as the example I gave earlier...Let's start with Grief...High defense and handler hard....Mink...defense and handler hard...Pike..same..Thus one could infer that this trait is seen running in a straight line starting with Grief. No. However, if say Mink was bred to say a show line female that had none of these traits and the offspring was say...Lewis (just for argument sake here) and he in turn was just as civil/hard/handler aggressive etc. then we can say this is a dominant trait that will pass on to successive breedings down the line. So if one likes this trait but the line carries a low food drive that is a desired trait a breeder would like to have, then find a female line that has exhibited this trait being passed on to her progeny. Try that cross and see if the added desired trait was added to the result without disturbing the other traits. Just my thoughts here.

by Rastamon on 26 October 2016 - 19:10

Ok here is a post for a stud dog.

V Ix von Edgecombe KKL IPO1 AD OFA Good hips, Normal elbows, DM Clear Available for stud. http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/2780483/Ix-von-Edgecombe "Enzo" is a dog with high food & ball drive. He has good prey drive with underlying aggression. Strong barker, great speed to the bite. Stable mind & can take a correction. Tall, medium strong male. Moves straight going out & coming back. Straight front with good rear angulation & good upper & lower line. Extremely healthy dog - can eat anything, no skin or coat issues.

The above is a report on the dog. I would assume if I have a bitch that is low in say food drive and prey drive that breeding to this dog is ...hopefully...will help strengthen my bitch's traits which I'm trying to improve....and probably keep everything intact since my female exhibits his other traits too. Just for argument that is. However, lets say I have a Fero grand daughter that is alway a whiner or yapper when excited, then maybe this is not a good fit since this male is a strong barker also which might intensify her whininess. But the main thing is being a stud, what traits of his were passed down or diluted when mated to other bitches.

by Donnerholz on 27 October 2016 - 16:10

It seems to me that one simply needs to do research into the pedigree for any dog he is considering purchasing or using in his breeding program. It is a time consuming process. Yes, the breed reports found here, if provided, or on Working Dogs will help some. Sometimes, the "user comments" will also help.

Sometimes they don't. For example, consider Fero vom Zeuterner Himmelreich, a dog I frequently find listed in pedigrees of dog I'm considering. The breeders at Jinopo.cz say Fero's blood is in 90% of the top working dogs competing in Europe. To find that comment, though, you need to search through their website. Jinopo does a wonderful job of providing descriptions of past and present dogs used in their breeding program and it's only in one of those descriptions that you will find that comment. Yet, the user comments about Fero here on this website fail to reach any consensus regarding his ability to produce dogs with good hips. (Yes, I know that's not a specific working trait but, if a dog can't move without pain, how effective can he be in the field?) One commenter said Fero did produce dogs with good hips. Another commenter took issue with that thought.

Aside from pedigree listing websites, breeders and dog sellers' website can also provide valuable information. For example, in show lines, the Hirshel brothers--2x VA 1 Fanto and V Frei--were known for having excellent working ability. It was only by looking at the website from a breeder in Virgina that I was able to learn that Fanto vom Hirshel was known for passing on his working ability to his daughters but not his sons. His brother and littermate Frei did pass on his working ability to his sons, notably V3 Amigo vom Belgier who, in turn, had three prominent sons with exceptional working ability--all of whom were produced by different kennels. While a producer of show lines might be excited to see Fanto in the pedigree, a breeder who also wants to produce dogs with exceptional working characteristics will want to make sure that Fanto show up as the sire of a female, not a male.

My point here is that there simply is no shortcut for doing a lot of research on your own. Only you know the qualities you desire and which of those qualities are more important. Or less important.

I wish you well in your search.

by Rastamon on 27 October 2016 - 19:10

Thanks Donna.
Maybe it was wishful thinking on my part hoping something like this existed. My thoughts going forward was one of ...if there was such a program or registry, percentages of traits being passed on to offsprings from each parent could form a percentage decision tree of matched outcome. But again....wishful thinking. One would think that in today's age of technology we should have a software available that would aid in the breeding decision making. One could easily have a dog with x traits wishing to enhance the Y traits, by merely going online and plug in your desired combination, the information could give you possible percentage outcome. I know these are all subjective stuff but, some traits are pretty much traceable and solid. Anyway, so much for my curiosity. Thanks again.





 


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