Breeders in Canada, BC? - Page 3

Why are you so defensive, Holes ? I did not accuse you of anything. What I did was call attention (once again) to 'holes' in your posts, where what you are claiming about your dog's behaviour does not quite square with it being managed well.

Believe me, if a GSD - even a young one - really does bite a variety of people, within a short space of time, and those bitten are not immediate family, it is more than likely you'll find the police or animal control getting involved. You would have found yourself on the wrong end of the law about this by now, and possibly be facing having your pup taken and euthanised.  So, maybe you are being a bit of a drama queen about just how awful this puppy's behaviour is ? Could that be true ?

I do not have anything to say in favour of this Sandy, I do not know her or anything about her except that she has some mixed reviews on the 'net about her dogs, going back 3 years and more. But if she is as active and successful in the Show field as it appears, I will say this: she is not likely to be deliberately breeding to encourage poor temperament in her puppies.  No Show judge wants dogs they cannot get their hands on, either through poor nerve or over-aggression.

All the time, people on this board bemoan the fact that too many GSDs are bred to resemble Golden Retrievers in a Grey-sable or Black & Gold coat, especially blaming the Show fraternity for this, because it does no favours to a working breed of dog.  But it is for those buyers who clearly do not understand what they are taking on, that such 'soft' dogs are being bred.

This leaves ALL other GSD puppies, with perfectly normal temperaments, branded as nasty, because they try it on with their owners and see them as 'chew toys'; & this gets interpreted - by novice owners AND by some sorts of dog Trainers - as the pups being vicious. Even when very young.  You may be surprised if I tell you that very probably people who DO know about working breeds and how to handle them would almost certainly not experience the problems you recount, if they took your dog over.  Obviously I cannot be 100% sure about that, because I cannot meet your dog ; but I say it based on dozens of cases of people saying similar things about (perfectly normal) GSD puppies, down these many years.

Hund - I tried to help a neighbour, long ago, to rehab her Woodside GSD. It was a fear -biter and would not approach me, inside the house, even after over a month of almost-daily visits with me ignoring the dog. This dog eventually got out of the yard and bit a child going home from school one day - dog had to be put down. That dog had a terrible temperament, so even after all these years it did not surprise me to hear about another dog from same breeder having a poor and dangerous temperament.

Koots, I do believe you, honestly I do, and it is clear there have been other cases. But if that was a while back, and this breeder has nonetheless continued to show her dogs successfully, without
'hitting the headlines' because her dogs keep 'really' biting people, then there are still questions and a mis-match here.
Its not that unusual for some pure Show lines to be windy and fear-biters, a problem that has plagued us on both sides of the Pond. Presumably she gets rid of stock with this fault by selling them, to unsuspecting novice buyers. But you know that pups still in the nest have to be quite bad, before you can tell they will grow up 'fraidy, or nasty !
The OP allowed herself (?) to have this breeder recommended to her by a 'pushy' colleague (who has apparently backed out of any responsibility ?) and clearly did not apply a lot of thought or research to what she was choosing. On her own admission. Which might have worked out fine if she was buying that Golden, or a Chihuahua. But anyone who takes on e.g. a GSD or Mali or Rottie pup NEEDS to be sure they understand what working breeds need - even soft/windy Show specimens ! - and that they have the strength of character themselves to handle any rebellions they might then experience. That has always been the case, hasn't it ? In these days when everyman thinks they are entitled to keep dogs, no matter what, this is the sort of factor that gets forgotten about.

If this puppy is as bad as it is painted, the sensible thing to do would be to have it put down. It is no good to itself, let alone any humans in contact with it. And to start again, but this time first doing the research, using the brain, and being sure not to take on more than the OP is capable of.

Soft dogs OFTEN manifest fear biting behavior, especially when they are stressed. I am asked to fix these quite often and it is genetics. Based on my "limited" experience, and the fact that others in litter have same problem, I find the OP as credible. I left the ASL many many years ago because a large % were fear biters and some even successful show winners, but conditioned to tolerate the show ring.

Gustav - exactly!!! Conditioned to tolerate a judge's examination in the show ring. I saw this years ago when I took my Belgian Tervuren in his first (and last, wasn't our thing) big local dog show. There were several GSD's with obvious fear issues in the ring, that were barely controlled from biting the judge by a skilled handler, yet one of these was put up as BOB. The genetics of this breeder are what makes the OP's pup the way it is. Yes, the OP got taken advantage of by an unscrupulous breeder - this is not the first person on here to have this experience and will not be the last. Yes, the OP could probabaly have educated thenselves better by a search on the net and bought a pup from a decent breeder. But, the OP is obviously not the only person who has purchased from this breeder, as Woodside has been around for many years producing dogs of questionable character, selling to unsuspecting buyers who then have to deal with a dog that can become dangerous to society. Many people are not as willing to just put the dog down, even though it may be the best choice before said dog hurts a person, instead they try to deal with the dog's issues as best as they can, seeking professional help as the OP has done. I feel sorry for the OP as their first GSD experience has not been the pleasure that many of us know. The OP has to make some serious decisions for the dog's future, and their responsibility of ownership of an obviosly dangerous dog.

Then, yet again, I feel very sorry for the American / ASL GSD population. Don't forget, I am observing all this from the UK, where although there have been such problems in our past, they were never to this extent ! And it does not apply often today; yes, some nervousness can be habituated out of a dog during its Show career, to the extent that it is capable of being mauled around by the judges and not showing it, but then they go to pieces OUTSIDE of the show ring / environment - I agree, having lived with such a dog myself. But she seemed fairly normal as a 7 month old pup when I met and started to exercise her, and, more to the point, she was never allowed to become unmanageable as an older pup and adult. I did not know her while 'in the nest', but doubt she was actually biting people from 8 or 9 weeks old ! The OP's pup is reported as being snappy from the get-go. Hopefully those of us who know the breed would have put such a puppy out of its - and our - misery quite quickly ?  Sometimes doing the right thing is more important than money, or getting used to and loving one's pet.  If there is any way of taking the issue up with the breeder, that is separate - but I think it would give more weight to a legal argument if buyers jointly said they'd had to put the dogs down as a safety precaution.  Maybe the OP should enlist the co-operation of others who have posted in various places that they have suffered the same problems with stock bought from this breeder ?

No, smiling, Koots and I fully realize you are in UK, that's why we posted.

But, Cliff, others reading this thred may not ...

Actually what I'd really like to see is Sandy come out of the woodwork on this (we know she is lurking & reading the thred) so she can try to justify her breedings & her sales policy.

Why should she if she is a shady breeder? According to Holesinboots, she's got a FB reputation (real or not) that is working quite well. Isn't that the point the OP was making? And instead her dog owning credibility is being dissected. Two very respected members are inclined to agree with Holes, one because of their hands on experience, something impossible for you, Hund. Unless those are some very long and rubbery arms!

 

This isn't the first time you will have promoted the elitist, ownership thing. 

I certainly have owned a GSD puppy willing to bite from the get go. Personally, if the pup is so genetically damaged to become the exteme case and liability being presented here, I would seriously consider the PTS option. The quality of life being presented for dog and owner, not to mention the saftey of the public at large is far from ideal, and really, after experiencing that type of stress and committment, myself, I would not be willing to do it, again. I wouldn't think any less of Holes if the hard decision left her little choice. She would be so much happier with a proper temperament GSD, such as noted and available through the Bullinger kennels.

Holes, you already paid a lot of money for SEVERAL trainers - why did you switch the trainers that often? There is no "sudden cure". Insecure dogs first of all need stability in daily routine and in training - switching trainers ( unless the chosen trainers were clueless ) won´t help your dog.

Why don´t you join a club in your area? Might be less expensive and more helpful.

Right now I don´t know if your dog is "fear" aggressive or "social" aggressive". Do you know?

OT: Hey, Pete, how are you? I really missed your comments...