Mendelian Genetics lies we have been told .. Incomplete Penetrance and Variable Expressivity - Page 1

Since the "Burger King" of New Zealand posted some unreadable rants about the infallibility of Mendelian Genetics and why the 50 year old genetics of the OFA and SV are without fault I thought a new thread on the roughly 70% of genetics that Mendelian genetics can not explain which includes HD, DM, and most traits and diseases in dogs. Attached below are links to web sites discussing the inconvenient truths of the mathematical models which Mendel and his followers relied on ... they don't work 70% of the time in humans or other animals. Science has no idea how to predict most traits and diseases in dogs or humans either at all or with a low certainty. Once there are more than two or three genes involved the certainty goes down and when environment plays a major role then Mendelian genetics is as accurate as throwing darts.

http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/Same-Genetic-Mutation-Different-Genetic-Disease-Phenotype-938

https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/primer/inheritance/penetranceexpressivity

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_genetics

 

 

I agree with your premise, but I was really 'accurate' at throwing darts way back when.

I think comparing predictability of genes expression is as accurate as throwing darts while blindfolded would be more accurate. :-)

Joanro .. The thing is that a GSD breeder with 5 generations of breeding experience with their line of dogs ( such as yourself ) can toss darts with some accuracy while an organization such as the OFA and the SV are throwing blindfolded. When science fails you as in Mendelian genetics predicting HD or DM then placing your dog's lives in the hands of a blindfolded organization that exists to serve itself first and foremost ( both OFA and the SV ) is beyond logic. A short excerpt on why "classical genetics" from 1915 is becoming the modern day equivalent of bleeding people to cure bad humors when they have an infection. Science still uses classical genetics when it has nothing better just as we use the X-Ray when the MRI or CT Scan are either too expensive or unavailable. 

Classical genetics is the branch of genetics based solely on visible results of reproductive acts. It is the oldest discipline in the field of genetics, going back to the experiments on Mendelian inheritance by Gregor Mendel who made it possible to identify the basic mechanisms of heredity. Subsequently, these mechanisms have been studied and explained at the molecular level.

Classical genetics consists of the techniques and methodologies of genetics that predate the advent of molecular biology. A key discovery of classical genetics in eukaryotes was genetic linkage. The observation that some genes do not segregate independently at meiosis broke the laws of Mendelian inheritance, and provided science with a way to map characteristics to a location on the chromosomes. Linkage maps are still used today, especially in breeding for plant improvement. After the discovery of the genetic code and such tools of cloning as restriction enzymes, the avenues of investigation open to geneticists were greatly broadened.

Some classical genetic ideas have been supplanted with the mechanistic understanding brought by molecular discoveries, but many remain intact and in use. Classical genetics is often contrasted with reverse genetics, and aspects of molecular biology are sometimes referred to as molecular genetics.

Despite the "alligator"s assertion, I have never been near any Burger King at any time in my 75½ years. The crown was donated as a result of me being elected king of an extremely large GSD e-group, back about 15 years ago. We royals don't embarrass donors by asking them WHERE they got their gifts to Us from! If Burger King is short of a 👑, that's not OUR problem.

The only time I have tolerated any burgers were on occasions when my wife had a craving for a Big Mac. I'd rather have a hot toasted sandwich than a burger. (There are some burghers We'd rather not have, too....)

[joanro] MIGHT be "a GSD breeder with 5 generations of breeding experience", but I am not.
My first litter was in September 1968 - one in which we managed to mate a very fit dysplastic bitch to a dysplastic dog whose hips had been operated on. But the owner wasn't ethical enough to tell US that - we found out by being an early customer of the professors who had operated on that dog and, after our Zacki had easily passed all the "physical tests" they were hoping would work to identify dysplastics, her xrays showed Grade3 HD and, after hearing our tale, they asked us who we'd used at stud.

Among my "doggy" credentials is having become interested in genetics in 1954 when, at a boys' boarding school, I discovered Amram Scheinfeld's "The New You and Heredity" (sadly, in that environment I lacked the willing females capable of helping me test what Amram stated); in 1991 becoming the genetics advisor to my country's GSD Advisory Council; having picked the brains of Genetics Professor (Newcastle-on-Tyne) Malcolm Willis during his DownUnder lecture tour hosted by our Advisory Council. There is only one on-line GSD group I currently recommend - its owner is a professional genetics consultant with a major interest in both BSDs and GSDs and who keeps in touch with such as Prof. Sheila Schmutz of Healthgene Laboratory and usask.ca.

● "The observation that some genes do not segregate independently at meiosis broke the laws of Mendelian inheritance, and provided science with a way to map characteristics to a location on the chromosomes"
is not a claim I can accept as anything other than a misinformed exaggeration to "prove" a biased position.
Anyone with an understanding of the physical exchanges during meiosis would not EXPECT every single step of the DNA helix to stay linked - they DO "segregate independently" in the same way that making two "snakes" from stickle-bricks, placing the "snakes" side by side, breaking each snake into roughly equal lengths then swapping every 2nd piece will result in places where the bricks each side of the split will no longer be paired. And so allele F^^d that used be linked to allele G^^r (the superscripted ^^d and ^^r representing the dominant versus recessive allele) is now linked to allele G^^d - a fact probably of no concern to gene F^ but COULD make a big difference to the individual who inherits the G^^r allele that is now beside (aka "linked to") the F^ gene that used to be beside/close-to the G^^d .
And, of course, there are worse possibilities, such as the section that contains alleles of G H I J flipping so that when they attach to the segment ending with F the sequence becomes A B C D E F J I H G -  a situation that the gamete and the fertilised egg can cope with (because they have the full set of genes, despite some being transposed), but causes hell when that inheritor produces gametes that split somewhere else along its length and some of its progeny receive THREE copies of some genes, only ONE of others. That over-supply of some proteins and under-supply of other proteins can be enough to prevent the embryo moving to the next stage of gestation - which seems to be the explanation for descendants of a popular stud having very low fertility, with ultrasound scans showing several embryos in the early stages but zero-to-3 reach whelping.

To make it worse, the On/Off switching works fine when the genes are in the correct order, but BIG problems when the allele switched Off is the ONLY copy of that gene that the unfortunate individual has inherited.

Anyone who wishes to compare my attitude with that of the "alligator" is welcome to work through our respective contributions to
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/community.read?post=866983-vet-check-question-during-a-vet-visit-should-the-vet-pull-a-3-month-pups-legs-back-to-check-hips
but please ignore my unformatted 2 June 2016 - 09:06 attempt to get everything into a single post, after which I discovered that there is a time-limit on how long I have to eat & solve the unfamiliar problem I met. Pdb is at times even worse than the current state of Yahoo Answers! And both sites have their childish illogical "everyone is wrong except ME!" trolls!

Prepare to get a wall of links and quotes from anti-establishment stick it to big pharma anti vet new age bullshit conspiracy theory sites bubba spends all day and night trawling.

vk4  

The Kiwi Burger King did not explain incomplete penetrance or variable expressivity?? Why not .. because he can't and neither can anyone else on planet Earth. Both DM and HD can't be explained with Mendelian genetics yet the OFA and SV continue to pretend these complex and environment sensitive diseases can be predicted the same as breeding peas for bloom color. Those who deny the facts do not change them. The KIWI Burger king is talking genetic BS based on his 1950's education and scientific knowledge now sadly out of date. The terms incomplete penetrance and variable expressivity were terms coined by Mendelian geneticists for the 70% of genetics they could not explain using their theories. They just ignored the facts. Mendelian genetics as a basis for breeding and disease research for complex traits and diseases has never been successful and never will be. 1954 called and they want their fat men with ties and clip boards back. The present and future belongs to molecular genetics and an understanding that Mendelian genetics fail to explain 70% of inherited diseases and health problems which the KIWI Burger King and Malcolm Willis did not address in their lecture tours down under or up over. Classical genetics never explained inheritance of anything but very simple traits and diseases and HD and DM in dogs are not simple. The SV and OFA profit from their antiquated technology and political schemes for HD "prediction" based on phenotype. They claim that by throwing away good dogs on the basis of phenotype they can improve the dog while denying that phenotypic selection is how the dog breeds and their health problems were created .. as usual follow the money. If the Kiwi Burger King can explain incomplete penetrance and variable expressivity with Mendelian genetics he will get a Nobel prize because no one else ever has. A nice Nobel medal would be so much nicer than his crown.

I thought one of my earlier posts quoting Willis showed
the reason no one here is bothering to "explain incomplete
inheritance and variable expressivity " - the arguments got
overtaken by the evidence for a polygenic trait back in the
70s.

BTW Bubs, Les isn't wearing a tie in his avatar pic ...

Incomplete penetrance and variable expressivity are weasel words used by Mendelian geneticists because they can not explain the majority of traits and diseases with their mathematical formulas or charts whether polygenic or not. Variable expressivity is the equivalent of saying two plus ( one, or two, or three ) equals four. In 2/3 of the cases the answer is incorrect but the Mendelians are saying we can just ignore those cases with the errors and we will explain them later when we get more data and this has been the case for over 100 years. The BRCA genes involved in breast cancer are as well understood as any in the world but only 70% of women with these mutations develop breast cancer and that varies greatly among different populations. Why .. nobody knows for sure but most likely environment. What makes scientist think environment is important in developing breast cancer?? Ninety percent of breast cancers show no genetic or familial influence. Ninety percent of breast cancers are due to spontaneous mutations and spontaneous mutations are strongly influenced by environment. There will never be a time when anyone can explain HD or DM in dogs and likewise ALS or MS in humans ( the human DM equivalent ) with genetics alone. What is needed is testing of the effects of environment and exercise with emphasis on food and exercise during the first year of life for dogs for both DM and HD. The pet industry corporations will fight against food and exercise testing because the outcome could threaten their profits if unfavorable.

"What is needed is testing of the effects of environment and exercise with emphasis on food and exercise during the first year of life for dogs for both DM and HD. The pet industry corporations will fight against food and exercise testing because the outcome could threaten their profits if unfavorable."

Buuba, sure that´s "needed", but "genetical research" is needed, too.

You always fight against science, why aren´t you willing to acknowledge that "we" ( 2016 pm ) are only a small part during research, development, knowledge?

Genetics are difficult, and it will take way more time and maybe not even invented equipment to understand all of it. Too late for me, too late for you - but at least for me neglecting a lot of already done official scientific researches in case of "heredibility HD" would be the same as neglecting environmental issues.