Breeder help - giving myself best odds - still undecided - Page 1

Quick background - I have been researching for over a year and reading these forums every day. I have learned a great deal but I still haven't picked a breeder or line. I have decided on a working line male. Color is not important. Health is #1 criteria, Temperament #2, Drive #3. I want an IPO prospect but I definitely want an on-off switch, as I will definitely be doing IPO, but I also want a companion to take on hikes and runs.

First, I am not trying to start any war between posters (as I have witnessed on many entertaining posts).

I know there are no guarantees with any choice I make, but why not give myself the bet odds? For example, chosing both parents with IPO 3, V rated, and ZW scores of 75 or less with a background or line that I like (like Pike, Bolle, Leon, Iron, etc.). As mentioned, health is #1 so how can I check life spans of various lines? I have looked at "in memory" sections on some breeders websites and noticed many of the progeny not living very long? My current shepherd is 12 1/2 and I am planning on having my next that long, which is why I am not rushing the decision.

My other question is Germany vs US? I live in US, and given if you can visit a kennel that is ideal, but #1 the odds of it being near me mean I would likely travel anyway, and #2, let's be honest, I am no expert and wont know everything to look for anyway. This is why I want to find a breeder I can trust to do this for me. Price is not an issue, as up front costs are nothing compared to what I will spend over the lifetime. For some reason, I feel I have a better chance with a breeder in Germany, but I have been watching a few breeders in the US as well (Rennbahn, von Wyndmoor, von Tajgetosz, Olgameister, etc.).

So if you had a blank check to get the dog I am looking for, what things would you look for and where? I am open to all advise and apologize in advance for somehow offending someone (again, I have read many posts here :))

Hey Css
Pm me when you have a moment.

Working-dog.eu is the easiest site I've found to check death dates. I do that myself- I check deaths and look into the weird ones to find out if they're flukes or signs of a problem in the line.

Good for you for doing your research! Great first step.
I would recommend a breeder in the US since this is your first go around. This way you can visit parents, facility, and maybe see some littermates or other dogs from that kennel. You also will be able to evaluate the puppy before taking him home.
Even with long lines of health tested parents, there is still a chance of developing health problems. A breeder in the US would be much easier to deal with for a refund, replacement, etc.
I would recommend Sequoyah GSDs, they are in TN. Nice breeding stock, all health tested, and probably one of the best support systems and health contracts I have seen.

Jenni,
I look at working dog all of the time to see the most visited dogs, litter plans, etc. Where do you find information about death dates? Do you need to be a premium member for that as I didn't see it.

Chris

Yeah, Chris, you do. Definitely worth it. The last female I imported has a grandsire who passed away quite young. I wanted to verify that this was a fluke and not a red flag. I searched his progeny records and inquired on every death date younger than 10 and told them exactly why I was asking. They were very nice and I got a response from everyone. Turned out there was nothing to worry about so I went ahead.

Jenni78 has some beautiful dogs with great bloodlines. Also, she is honest and certainly knows what she is doing! Personally, if I was in the market for a puppy or grown dog, I would check out her dogs first or talk to her about where to go to get one.

I would suggest reversing #1 and #2. A "healthy dog" with less than correct temperament will not be healthy. Even minor stress affects the body's health.

Is your intent to buy pup, juvenile that has been somewhat preliminarily screened on health issues or a proven certified adult? That decision may affect the decision on where do go.

Unless you are very experienced or know the right people my advice is not to import. There are great dogs on both sides of the pond. The European dog market is a meat market and swallows the unwary every day. If you are the typical US buyer looking for guarantees - on an import pup there are none; on an import adult only what you write in the contract and even then you have no effective way of enforcing said contract.

Unless you are an experienced trainer and handler looking for a National or World level dog my advice is to start and try to stay local - to your city, state or region - there are enough good reliable honest breeders in the US you should be able to do that. PLEASE please do not go and buy off the web- fancy photos or website do not a good breeder make. In fact some very good breeders do not even have a web presence. Since you are interested in IPO start with your local schutzhund clubs of ALL organizations ( USCA, GSDCA, AWDF, DVG). Go to training and talk with folks but mostly watch learn and listen! Listen not only about the dogs and their owners/breeders but most especially listen to the dogs. I don't have to see a dog in the blind to know what kind of dog they are - their voice tells me that. Is it saying I really want to kick your ass or lets play or please lets get this done so I can get the heck out of here. See what dogs you like and not so much. Learn who they are. Ask about breeders but don't fall for the old helper schtick I have a friend in Germany, Hungary, Slovakia.....

Go to herding trials. Herding was where obedience in drive started and let me tell you 3, 30 or 300 sheep booking it at 30 mph are far more attractive and demanding of OID than any helper can hope to be. Again - watch and listen. What dogs do you like or not and why. Are the dogs herding from instinct and talent or "robot" herding where every step is directed. Good herding lines have drive and hopefully biddable drive and can be a good source for IPO dogs.

Go to agility trials, barn hunt, messenger dogs, nosework, obedience trials etc etc. Go to german style breed shows. Go to AKC shows and watch breed and go watch the obedience. Find the local AKC GSD specialty club. Often there are members w/ European lines and often the clubs put on seminars and shows and have speakers.

Follow up on the dogs you liked or people who were willing to mentor you. When you have identified some possible breeders go talk to them and see their dogs in person. Do this kind of homework and my bet is you will find your breeder locally and one that you will have a relationship with.

Thanks for the advice. I am thinking US may be way to go, but it would be more about meeting and trusting the breeder. I am not as concerned about a guarantee, I mean, yes, I want a breeder that will stand behind their quality, but once I have the dog for a while I wouldn't be able to send it back for another and return it. I thought about a good working showline, but I watched you tube videos of the best of the best (knowing I would never get a dog that good) and I watched Pike, Bolle, etc. and there is no comparison. I am not strying to start a debate, but I am definitely going working line this time. I have always had females, and I love the bonding, but this time I am considering a male. Again, thanks for all of the advice.

Whether buying or breeding I have always asked about longevity in the pedigree. Paying attention to that in one generation can add time to our dog's expected lifespan. A growing problem in our breed is hemangiosarcoma. IMHO much worse than DM that everyone natters on about. It strikes dogs in the prime of their life often at 7 or 8 and definitely has a familial component. Ask if they have lost dogs to it and then who and at what age. Bloat/torsion should be asked about also. Ask re immune problems - including thyroid -another burgeoning area.

But despite doing your due diligence and asking all these questions in the end understand that this is a living breathing creature and not a toaster and sh*t happens. Especially with a puppy - realize that what you are paying for is puppy breath and the rest is a crap shoot. If you do not intend to breed I even suggest not xraying the dog as he will tell you his capacity to work - it has nothing to do with an xrayed image but if that image does not live up to your expectation you will be disappointed in him and it will change your relationship. Many people stop working such a dog which is the worst thing to do for the dog. Others will return a beloved dog for a "replacement" - this I personally do not get. A dog enters my home for life and we will do together what we have the capacity to do together.

I would also warn you against the producers who guarantee up the kazoo- saw a 5 yr one recently. Many of these guarantees are cleverly written so they can never be complied with and the ones guaranteeing a replacement (shudder) rely on the breeder producing sufficient volume to be able to do so - not always the best choice in choosing a breeder. The really good breeders I know breed on a limited basis or for their own replacement dogs so would not have sufficient "stock" to swap out dogs.

Now do not mistake me. I do believe in reasonable health clearances ( this does not include the SOD1-"DM" test which is a fraud and a sham for our breed) and I expect breeders to do the best they can in breeding not only on health matters but choice of partners and clarity of focus and goals of what they are breeding for but I also understand that dogs are not toasters.

What I would like to see in the place of mythical guarantees is a warranty of merchantability ie fitness for purpose. What this means is if I sell you a pet who despite my best efforts and a hip screened pedigree is accurately diagnosed w/ HD but as is typical for most shows no affect from it, then I owe you nothing because the dog is fit for the purpose for which it was bought - a pet. On the other hand if we had a deal where I sold you a dog as show quality and that dog had a disqualifying fault (only one testicle or down ears etc) he does not fit the purpose for which you contracted and the contract should speak to what the remedy for that is ( money back or a second dog with the original retained or whatever the two parties agree to BEFORE the purchase). I believe if we look at whether the dog fits the purpose for which it was bought there would be a lot less angst and finger pointing and anger about whether or not there was a guarantee and what it was and whether or not it could have ever been complied with.

I apologize for having used your post as a soapbox. I wish you well in you search and if I can answers questions for you about breeders or the breed please feel free to pm me. If you let us know what part of the US you are in we may be able to get you started on some of those local resources. Good luck.

PS please see the pm I sent to you.