german shepherd puppy with white markings - Page 2

What is your goal for the puppy in question? Work...Show...Breeding?

~Bob~

We need a picture of V Verena von Batu for the database (an accurate one). West german show lines are notorious for the lighter smaller saddles. Often the images are darkened before being published, and the dogs keep the images taken of them young for pedigree and promotional use.

Banker and a couple other US & Canadian Grand Victors had chest blazes rather than stars, but the saddle thing is something else.

after V Palme vom Wildsteiger Land and her two sons 2X VA1 Uran vom Wildsteiger Land and 2X VA1 Quando von Arminius most imports from Germany had little tiny saddles that did not travel well down the sides of the ribcage, and we could tell right away what country a dog can from by the saddle.
Example of almost no saddle: Tina du Bergenie (also an VA1 Ursus von Batu Descendant)

What do breeders think? Should a rebate or half price be given for white toes and chest star?

Gosh, she even LOOKS like Star in conformation as well as pigment!

Thank goodness Star's pigment is a little better than that!

BTW, the white sleeve of the lady posing Star in her 8 week photo makes the star on her chest look much bigger than it actually is. And now, you would never know there had been a white mark there. Her toes are a different story: she has a couple of white nails, thought the fur has mostly turned tan.

This photo was taken when she was about 5 months old. The white on her chest is totally gone, but you can still see some white on the left hind foot.

Almost all  'black & tan' puppies start out with large areas of black saddle

or blanket;  they all get lighter as they grow, and the tan spreads.

Not all b&t pups have white markings;  the more small marks remaining

into adulthood have been disregarded in breeding programmes, the greater

their extent becomes (on individual pups, and in the breed).  Somehow I do not

think Von Stephanitz would have expected - or condoned - that, in 'his' breed.

Having said that - and acknowledging that I personally don't much like white chest

and/or paw marks on any GSD - they do fade eventually as the dog grows, in a majority

of cases.  IMO  they are not linked to "fading pigment / colour paling", but an

entirely separate set of genes.

   I don t think a price reduction is called for because of white toes or small white spot on chest. 

The health and the temperment is the most important thing. A person looking to buy a pup for show, has the option not to pick that puppy...quite simple. 

   Me and my sister 'used to' think, OMG, white tips on the toe. At the end of the day, good health and correct temperment is what matters.

   No, you don 't want a solid black dog with white tippy toes...every other color, the white blends in if it doesn't disappear totally.

   It has no bearing  on the overall dog. JMO

Hundmutter wrote: "Not all b&t pups have white markings;  the more small marks remaining into adulthood have been disregarded in breeding programmes, the greater their extent becomes (on individual pups, and in the breed).  Somehow I do not think Von Stephanitz would have expected - or condoned - that, in 'his' breed."

Do you really believe that Stephanitz was trying to create an all black & tan breed of dogs? Or, that he worried about white markings on toes? Do some research on why Stephanitz quit the SV (the breed club he created) and you will have a much better understanding of what he was trying to create. I'll give you a hint. It wasn't pretty, perfectly marked, over-angulated dogs running around in circles. Nor did he want white German Shepherds expelled from 'his' breed.

I agree 100% with kitkat''3478'' white spots on the paws or chest are not consider as fault by SV standard.I went to many shows SV style and i seen many top including VA dogs with white spots.The SV and FCI judges are looking mostly for movement,anatomy, overall expression and than the color(pigment).Dog can have the best pigment in the world but if is missing those other charasteristic i mention is not going to win,I don't know how this work in AKC show ring,after breeding dogs for over 30 years i still don't undestand what the AKC judges are looking for in German Shepherds,and i probably never will ? The last time i show my dogs under AKC judge was in 1986 and was under Ernest Loeb and to me and many other breeders was the best AKC judge ever ,He really look and evasluate the dog ,not the handler. This is just like politicks,we have Republicans and the Democrats,both parties can't agree on anything .To me if this puppy with white spots has the other charasteristics,i would pick from the whole litter,and had no regreds or whatsoever.

Old Shatterhand,

It's great to see someone post that has been around the breed for a long time.

Ernie Loeb stamped his mark on the American lines by importing this dog from Germany.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=390547-bernd-vom-kallengarten

Bernd and his lines are very prominent in the modern American GSD. Bernd also brought the black gene in to the American lines.

  My new puppy has a white blaze on this chest.  His breeder immediately sent mea photo, so I knew about it from the outset.  It  was simply  NOT   a consideration, for the  reasons already stated.  Also, as stated, these tend to become smaller, or disappear ,as the puppy ages. 

Sunsilver:   The fading saddle may be due to the food the dog is fed. I had a half-show/half working line bitch.  She started life as a B & T, and , as also stated, the tan spread, until she was  Red & Black saddle-marked.  At one point, the saddle truly disappeared. She looked like a Malinois.   I asked a local show breeder about it and the first words out of his mouth were" You're feeding Precise, aren't you? "   I confirmed that I was and he said  that Precise had changed its kibble and eliminated biotin, and all I had to do was to simply switch to a brand with biotin.  I did, and the saddle was back in less than a month.

@ OGBS :

Please do not put words into my mouth.

I did NOT contest that the SV regards white spotting as a fault;

I did not claim  that Max wanted all-white dogs eliminated from

the breed.  [Although his original, 1899, German Standard dis-

qualified them, as has every Standard since.]

I certainly don't believe he actively wanted the breed to be ONLY

black&tan - you miss my point entirely on that -  but it is interesting

that there are passages where he argues for what a splendid colour

combination tan with black saddle IS;  and that he was just as 'guilty'

as his contemporaries of putting B&T dogs up at the expense of greys

when he Judged.

Of course temperament is far more important than colour; and the Show

Standards / rings are not the "be all and end all" of the breed.

Let me guess :   you have (or had) a Stud dog with a dirty great splodge of

white on his chest ???