Positive Sport Training - Page 1

I'm curious.  What is your thought on training a sport dog (schutzhund and obedience platforms) using purely positive methods? Any experiences? Pro's and Con's based on what you think?

vonrivera

Positive training is what is being preached.  If I mention Koehler's method of dog training, people are ready to call animal control.  Luckily, my trainers are well experienced, teach positive training methods, but understand and are not afraid to do hard corrections when required.  One hard correction, sends a clear message to the dog, more so than having to spend 30 minutes or so, trying to accomplish it with positives.

D

First, this phrase, "positive methods/reinforcement" is used wrongly by 98% of everyone who uses it...there are 3 other quadrants to B F skinner's box, actually 4 other ones, but, for the purpose of this discussion, we will leave it at that. Positive means to "ADD", not that you use ONLY methods that do not involve compulsion.

Now, to answer your question, no, I do not believe that you can train any dog in any discipline without some form of compulsion. I teach/imprint all behaviors with food and later a toy, but, there will come a time when the dog must simply do as told and if it has never been shown that it has no options, with compulsion, it wont listen. The dog's size, temperament and infraction will determine what type of compulsion it will need, but, in my opinion and in my world, proofing cannot be done without it.

You must first decide what works for an individual dog...Then choose what method works for you and the dog...

You...TEACH...TRAIN...and PROOF...

I like to TEACH using Food...I TRAIN using FOOD and a TOY...I PROOF using COMPULSION...

If you want to do High Level Competition then you need to Proof your dog to be sure they will execute an exercise when told to...This takes Compulsion when the dog breaks their concentration...

You can't correct a dog (Compulsion) for something they don't know or don't understand...So before you correct you must be sure the dog understands what you're asking for otherwise you confuse your dog and make their training much harder...

I believe you can teach a dog thru Positive Motivational Techniques only...but you can't be absoutely sure that the dog will execute an exercise 100% of the time using only this method...But when training using corrections...you only use the number of corrections and the intensity that is needed to get the dog's attention back on task...

~Bob~

Hired Dog, I think you mean 4 quadrants of operant conditioning, not the Skinner box

Spot on otherwise HD, and Bob too.

i am positive that it has limited success. great approach for most beginning dogs and handlers.

many people start with compulsion before the dog fully understands what you mean or expect from them,

look only in tracking how many dogs show there was too much compulsion to early

teaching the dog on positive/reward only is fine and give you better results in the long run, once the dog fully understands and chooses to disobey you need to move away from positive only 

Thanks all for your opinions.  Bob, if that is true then how are there top competitors that haven't used a single correction in training.  I agree on the individual case bases though.  

Vonrivera

People lie Vonrivera, especially because using corrections today is not very PC. Prongs and Electric collars are against the law in some European countries, people in those countries are STILL using them to train a dog. You cannot train and proof a dog without compulsion, never mind the "single" correction you mentioned.

Depends on the dog.  There is no formula or cook book for every dog.  Its hard to ruin a dog with positive reinforcement.  Using too much force too early is why the so called "old timers" had to have a very tough and resilient or perhaps a bit crazy dog.  Many of these gurus could only train one type of dog ..the ones that matched their training method.   Once you start using force you can burn your bridges and then there is no going back with that dog.  You can spend weeks building trust and a relationship with your dog and then destroy it all in a day.  Physical corrections should be few and far between and E collars probably should be used primarily for finishing.  Sometimes you or the dog are having a bad day and just waiting for a better day is better than having a knock down drag out with the dog for both of you.