Cool pup 2nd session Bitework - Page 1

Asko vd Lutter & Fanto vd Lobdeburg grand daughter 

typical of her sire Gonso vom Wieratal 

I am curious , at this age why the intense bitework?

Do u have this pup and what are u training for?  Why do u choose to do this at 14weeks old?????

YR

Personally I´m no fan of the whip, but otherwise, why no intense bitework at this age, as long as you strengthen the pup´s drives?
 

Looking at the pup I see intensity from her !! In the barking and gripping behaviour. I see a switch from barking and responding to the helper not the tug. You can see the gripping is hard and does not change once she has a hold even when 'stressed.' At 14 weeks the session shows the pups management of certain stressors that some adults would not manage as well. Everyone has their style and preference but that's why it's labelled cool. 

She trains at my club and will be doing IPO. Does it matter for what she is training? Trials and sports have become less and less what was intended that is to say a true test of the dog under stress. So some trainers choose to stress in their own way. 

There are many videos out there showing the viewer what the editor wants you to see. Dogs doing intense recalls while a handler is dangling a ball Dogs barking for a toy but its edited out of the frame so you see teeth and believe its aggression. These are 2 or 3 clips with the only break was me without the tug and the whip only, then getting the tug and then taking her off the tie. 

One video does not make a training system and one session does not imply this is the only way this pup will be developed. But rather it shows how the pup managed this level of stress at this age. I can understand a point of view that sees it as too much but to that my comment is this- For some dogs in a blind with a strange helper - a look from him - is too intense for the dog. Some dogs release anal glands during training conditions that for other dogs would be a walk in the park. 

Respectfully I say, the video is titled Cool pup 2nd session Bitework............................. Looking at the pup in light of the work and time exposed to training, was my intention for sharing the video. My humble submission is - look at the pup's response not necessarily to look at the helper and compare it to what mental confines one believes is age appropriate or sport/work specific techniques.

I hope this response addresses the questions especially since one of those had 5 question marks - I guess it indicates especially heightened curiosity 

I did not mean to post this so many times, my appologies, the site was not refreshing in my browser when posted. I guess my enthusiasm to respond got the better of me. :)

Not trying to criticize and she is a nice little spitfire of a pup, but there are some things that I noticed as a helper.  Do you want to discuss those or would you rather not?

I think that intense training with a 14 week is much to soon , stress it can take., sure, I raised some like him, but the intense, biting and getting a pup to this kind of using a lot of agression.???? sorry but if you  must let this pup be a pup along with strengthing the drives...can this pup go in public now and when it is 12 months old, without agressive behaviour...are you imprinting the pup for social behaviour also ? we have no clue..I see a dog being trained way too young for what I see from you...and your actions....  I have seen dog with this action turn on its handlers, and have many problems , and not knowing you , THAT is why I ask...That is how I have seen men train Junk yard dogs and dogs that have major problems and have ended up being put down...I had that opinion also from another trainer with far more experience than me, say the same thing...

SO you can fill us in as to why you are doing so much so soon...?? Not criticizing you , just serious about the pups reactions at 14weeks...I had a 5 week old female who would grip and hang and hold a mop till I pried its mouth off..BUT you do not start the work to get that young of a pup into a stressed situation until the dog is mature enough to make decisions and to have a knowledge of nature and how to turn on and turn off..NO pup can do that so what it learns now it retains...Can this pup be socially nice and civil and be a fun pup too...THAT is my question...what purpose at this age using a handler whip, mimicking the kind of result an older dog would encounter..No one is gonna attack a 14 week old pup with a whip or a pole or a stick for a title ? or should not be put in that kind of situation..

You may have all the answers I want to hear...that is the reason we all ask different questions as you made it public..

YR

No problem with reposting ,I use to do it all the time....the mods will delete it probably.

YR

YR - I will try to answer your many questions

The pup in the video is extremely social and is being imprinted as well

Here's a pic with a strange kid and her when she visited my gym this week:

I did not take a video of her joining the soccer game with the kids :)

Here's a video of her mother - solid black pup, her aunts as well on Their first bite session and first time meeting me after my wife whelped the litter when I was overseas. One of the sable females is an assistance dog for the elderly couple.The Black pup despite her obvious potential for protection sports, grew up in a home with now 9 year old Owen who's also in the video and is just a family dog trained in personal protection.  The Bicolor pup - the one with whom I used a boxing glove, because I did not have a stick- sorry us Junk yard trainers use whatever we can find , is a certified S&R Police Dog,BH and is also quite talented in IPO. 

Here's another video of another pup from the same father as the black pup when she was almost 9 weeks old, her first session with me after she went to her new owner 

And she is very social and works very well in IPO training she will BH next month and IPO 1 if all goes well in November 
Here you can see the same pup at just over 1 year with her owners and I can assure you she is well socialised and safe with other dogs and kids. 

This is a link for another daughter from my male LGA Gonso vom Wieratal and if you go to videos you can see her at 12 weeks old, doing grip work on her owner's winter jacket sleeve, I guess it is 'intense' as she is lifted off the ground several times during the session. She is now almost 3 yrs old, IPO 1 and a very good mother and family dog as well according to her owners in Germany. http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/990213/Olga-vom-Sachsenzentrum

I could post more but I am hoping this is sufficient info to aleviate your concerns of pups worked like they are at under 4 months and then growing to be social, well adjusted companions, service animals and sport dogs who know when aggression is appropriate. 

Thanks for your comments ,

Vit

It all comes down to genetics in the end.  I wonder how often poor genetics and what the dog is at heart is blamed on training.