Lift versus Out. - Page 3

There are no experts beetree, there are those who do this and know and those who hear or read about it and think they do, as with everything else in life.

There certainly is one expert who does know and he is not here.

Too bad because some people might think other people are experts going by the huge shovel of BS they have.

(Not you HD, incidentally )

Hired dog..:) OK my bad. 

I'm still waiting for some kind of demonstration that shows how the "lift" builds a better grip and not handler avoidance and mouthing and weaker grips.

Not an expert.....

Generally(emphasis on general) I use the lift method while working young dogs.   While the dog is lifted i create tension, or jerk etc the prey item trying to remove from the mouth.   The opposition reflex of the item leaving coupled with the tension causes the canine to grip and want to hold the object.   When it finally escapes the frustration level is also higher.   Over time once the canine has the grip and holds like I wish and is consistent over objects i start teaching the out.   Generally try to have the handler teach out on other items balls etc before moving it to the grip control phase.

just opinion and that is all.  

Chris Orkies - vom GrimOrkie - www.grimorkie.com

Chris,

Not trying to be a smart ass here but that teaches the wrong grip.  The grip should come from the molars not a hooking motion by the canines. 

Doesn't that also increase the mouthiness on the object?  When you attempt to snatch it, don't they react by adjusting their grip to attempt to try and hold it?

And finally, isn't the whole purpose that you are doing this is that you want the object out of their mouth?  Is that why you write, when it finally escapes?

 

BZ, this whole subject is dog dependant. If you have a dog who wants what you have and is willing to fight for it, pulling away prey while holding the dog back works, well too. I have had and seen dogs that were willing to fight really hard to get the object being pulled away from them. Grip is GENETIC, its either there or its not and all this BS about hard sleeves, barrel sleeves, etc, will not make a dog grip full if it was not born this way.

I have also seen dogs that will give up and get hectic when you try this method with them, obviously, those are the ones you dont do this with and find other ways to train them, but, again, grip and desire to hold on are genetic. Now, I like it when a dog bites full too, all the way to the mollars, however, in my world and for my needs, I do not get hang up on that because I know from first hand experience that ALL bites hurt, frontal, full, sideways, whatever, if the dog bites and holds on, it hurts, so, my only question for my needs is, "did the suspect/bad guy comply"?

We deploy dogs because of the psychological effect and the pain compliance they bring into the equation and I dont give a rat's ass if the dog bit the suspect with its mollars or its canines, I think the canines hurt more, as long as the pain compliance comes into effect and the idiot in question gets subdued, does that make sense? I am sure someone could come in and explain to you how this works, however, I think you are looking for an argument, again, because this idea does not fit in with what you believe or how you train. I will say this, again, depending on your experience level and your dog, you could end up with some problems later as far as trust issues between dog and handler when using this "pull" method.

Hired dog,

You kinda make one of my points.  On the sport side, we pay attention to all these details.  I can tell you emphatically that some dogs who don't bite full - the ones that aren't a genetically full grip, I can teach to grip full and most of them you will never know it.  I damn sure know it and I make sure that the owner knows it esp. if they plan on breeding the dog.

Molar grip is a more crushing powerful grip,  It is also harder and slower for a dog to disengage from.  When training a pp dog, we don't teach a full grip.  The dog's job is to protect their handler.  That means they are allowed to do as much damage as possible.  Mouthy is allowed and encouraged because we want them to shred the bad guy, not put four holes in him and hold him.  We also don't teach them to out. AT ALL.  A pp dog is like a bullet, he is being used to save the handler's life.  We teach the handler's to run when the dog engages. 

There is a different technique to do what Prager is talking about that I call setting the grip that works really well and doesn't cause any of the negatives that I see with the lift.

I agree with you that for your purpose you want a canine gripping dog.  Again, us sport trainers know what that is, and we keep dogs in the gene pool that have that behavior through our training. 

Am I looking for an argument?  Not really, I want a demonstration of it working.  I'm all for new ideas and techniques in training.  I am against the idea of saying things that don't agree with what is being demonstrated and then white washing it as all good.  There are people on these lists who do care and are trying to learn new ideas.  If we don't discuss it without all the personal baggage, then how does anyone learn anything.

I do appreciate your response and I readily admit I have not been as civil as I should be in some of these discussions.  I'll work on that. 

I do have another question for you though.  Have you ever used your dog and the dog and suspect didn't end up on the ground?

Doesn't that also increase the mouthiness on the object?  No not if done properly as tension is always on the line.   

When you attempt to snatch it, don't they react by adjusting their grip to attempt to try and hold it?  The goal is to get the item away but also to teach them to always hold it.   By twitching(bad word i know) the object im increasing the drive to hold it.   Mouthiness causes the canine to LOSE the item.

And finally, isn't the whole purpose that you are doing this is that you want the object out of their mouth?  No.   I use leather(most of the time wet) to build grip strength.   If the bite is not hard they leather will just slide right on through which leads to even more frustration.  

Is that why you write, when it finally escapes?  It only escapes if mouthiness occurs leading to more frustration.   Only the calm full grip either through strike and/or regrip is rewarded by win.   

 

Every canine is different, every breed is different,   a cut/dry process to grip development is not so simple.   

Best advice go work about 500+ canine puppies from various breeds:)

BZ, first, I really appreciate your candor and I am sure you will achieve your goal of becoming more civilized. I have seen a dog used on a suspect who not only did not go on the ground, he grabbed the dog by the throat and tried to kill it. Not every bite ends up on the ground.