Lift versus Out. - Page 1

I am  continually surprised that people when they see handler lifting the dog off the decoy think that the dog does not known how to out.

Here is the explanation. Lift is used for these purposes on dogs regardless if then know out or not.

1/ lift builds bite of a dog.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                a/ by "taking away" the prey from the dog he fights and grips harder and with more intensity.  That is a training technique to increase the intensity and fullness of the grip and not teaching the dog out as some less knowledgeable trainers think.  The out is trained completely different way and it is in direct opposition to teaching the dog bite  more intensity and with harder fuller  grip.

 b/ Telling working dog  to out too many times in a roll  may and usually does weaken his bite in comparison of that it could be  if the dog would bite with  its full natural potential.    Weakening of the bite does not happen just because of the conflict of telling the dog repetitively to bite and then shortly after that   not to bite, but even in well adjusted dog such repetition leads to anticipation of "out" command.  And we do not want the working ( LE / PP)  dog to have in his heart such anticipation of "out".  That is why after the working dog learns to out we do not use out too often but usually  we lift the dog off.     Of course some then think that the dog is not trained out which is ridiculous. many of the dogs are highly titled dogs and you can see them out quite well when they are commanded.       

 EXAMPLE: here you see the dog Carly out nicely:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzUG52xrqaw       and here at the timer 4:24  the dog is lifted . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NgI20nZMeo                                                                                                                           

2/ legal aspect                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Working dogs on a street are usually not  ( LE or PP) commanded to "out". They  need to perform out during certification but on the street bite they are almost 100% of the time lifted off. The reason is to protect the perp and also legal.  In heat of the encounter the dog may not out on first command and cause more damage then necessary. Also in the days of video cameras if the dog does not "out" from a perp on first command after  the perp gives up the defense lawyers will  have a field day in court  pointing out that the dog is not under control.  Thus to protect the perp and so that nobody can claim that the dog is not under control the dog is simply lifted off . 

 Prager Hans

P.S.

 I can not wait how people are going to tell me that I am wrong but in training there is more then one way to skin a cat. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I will agree with you on your first paragraph, the second one is BS excuses used by those who are too lazy to train a good out, who think a dog that wont release is a bad ass dog, etc.
The damage on the suspect is done when you are PULLING the dog off, tearing muscle and tissue. I can always put my dog back on a suspect who needs it and be fine legally.
Those who WIN lawsuits against agencies do so because of the damage done while pulling the dog off.

Well let me be the first!

You are correct that in the field PD dogs are lifted and not outed off of the perp.  This is preferable for many reasons. The legal one you mention but also we don't expect a scared shitless person to stand quiet after the dog outs on him and his motions would get him bit and torn up again.  Easier and safer to leave the dog on until we get there and remove and restrain the dog from regripping when the suspect makes an inadvertant non threatening move.  We also don't out them because that would give the suspect time to pull a weapon and possibly injure the canine. 

The first video the dog is outing because of the electric collar he is wearing. Handler is carrying the transmitter in his right hand.   THe out at the 22 sec point shows the dog jumping back in reaction to the electric stimulus he received.  Notice the grip that occurs at 1:11 on the video.  His initial grip is in the middle of the sleeve on the bite bar, by the end of the grip, he has worked himself down to the end of the sleeve.  By your definition not dominant and nervy behavior.

Second video is a demonstration for everyone that Lift does not build bite fullness or intensity.  The dog is clearly avoiding the handler prior to the lift.  The grip becomes loose and the dog even lets go and regrips a couple of times.  None of that is good.  This is by no means a Simple lift that is occuring either.  The handler has to take his left arm drop in under the leash and lift the dog up with his shoulder to get a release. 

The lift is viable for PD or PP dogs.  The lift in this video is not a lift, it's power because of the conflict between the dog and the handler.  If it did build power, fullness or intensity, then we damn sure wouldn't see the dog come off of the sleeve, go clear to the hand/edge of the sleeve to grip.  (which is a nerve problem, even you have said, genetic or training) and then as they lift the dog we can all see big as life that the dog has at best a 50% grip when he started this whole mess with an almost full grip.

You need a much better example if your going to push this idea as being feasible.

 

Hired dog, its' supposed to be a lift which is lifting the dog up into the grip so that he can disengage his canines. But yes the dog has to LET GO.

Otherwise it does result in tearing because the canine are curved and if you pull the dog off, he will tear through whatever he is holding. 

The Video does not show any of the claimed benefits of the lift. 

If taught right the negatives can be countered from the lift.

The correct way to build the grip in power and fullness is to set the grip, not lift it.

 

@ hired dog  I agree with you that the second reason  from  dog training point of view is BS however it is what it is. I was told many times that LE  K9 handlers are not trainers and they do not have time for the dog reliably to out under pressure. I personally do not know of LE that would have policy to "out" instead of "lift off" even so I am sure there may be some. That is even so those dog do certify out during annuals certification but then on the street the handlers go to lifting the dogs off. Thhat is my experience.  The other option to lift is bark and hold and bites almost never happen. City, county, state attorneys usually advice and put into police  to lift the dog . Usually it is written or unwritten policy.  I for my self tend to agree with the policy for stated reasons. 

 Prager Hans

Agencues have video of dog outing for court purposes, however, lately defense attorneys know more about dog training then trainers do and usually the first question to the handler is, "what is your apprehension ratio"?

I dont know of a single experienced handler who calls his dog off before securing the suspect, if he is alone. I dont know that many handlers who can sit or down their dog and search a suspect with the dog holding a stay either because control work is not what they are interested in, bad ass dogs is...

@hired dog is that a fact or are you sarcastic?( lately defense attorneys know more about dog training then trainers )  I think they - the attorney - learned to ask the rught questions which will get their asshole clients off. 

@ hired dog:I dont know of a single experienced handler who calls his dog off before securing the suspect, if he is alone.

  That is what I am saying to LE but they say maybe Highway patrol but we are never alone on a call. Thus we do not do that.  And when I ask again :"Never?" then say - "Never". 

 

 what is your apprehension ratio"

Whats the angle?