Your experience at GSDCA dog show? - Page 3

Blitzen,
A breed standard is just the begriming of what describes our breed! Without knowing and following what the founders of the breed were working towards, without testing these dogs in the style the founders set up - after a few generations the judges and breeders veer off into a direction that is not what the founders intended. ... I'm quite sure that the AKC version of the GSD would be highly frowned upon by the founders of this breed. 

How many GSDCA and AKC German Shepherd breeders and judges have studied the documents of the German founders of the breed ?  My guess is not many!

If AKC judges have studied these documents, then shame on them for buckling to peer pressure!
 

............

OH God, this reminds me of what is happening to our constitution now.........LOL

 

 

 

Kim you keep saying the the GSDCA working dog committee is destined to fail and one of your main reasons is becasue they refuse to switch to the FCI standard.  The FCI standard says nothing whatsoever about titling or testing. It's a document that describes their version of the conformation and temperament of the "ideal" GSD. It does not vary from the the AKC standard in any significant way that I can see; certainly in no way that would benefit the breed. What do you see that I don't? Please don't make it about which dogs are the best.

I am not as familiar with all of the nuances of breeding that most of you are on here. Does the GSDCA have the same breeding requirements that the SV does? I have read, not really understood, the AKC, FCI and WUSV GSD breed standards and they seem very similar on paper. However, imo, there really are 3 separate lines of the GSD: ASL; GSL; WL. I had to do a conformation showing last year (our SchH club was hosting the Regional Conformation, Breed Survey and AD) with my pup entered into the Young Dog class. I was really shocked to see the difference in drives, focus, energy and power between the WL & GSL dogs. I will say that even though i did decent, VG1 under koremeister SV Herr Wilfreied Scheld, I felt like my dog was definitely different then some of the GSL there.
I also started working with a local AKC club, mainly to help my guy with socializing and working with in the distraction of a lot of dogs, and they are big on the AKC circuit. All of them either have AKC Grand Champions or are working towards it with their current dogs. My dog looks nothing like theirs, they do not like my dogs stack, his energy scares them as he is much quicker in all aspects of this movement in both OB and just his walking around. His back is not sloped, his rear legs are much longer and do not wobble and his chest is visably different. They tolerate me because he is a "GSD" but tell me all the time that he is ugly as sin :) Even the conformation show the AKC club put on (as i helped with theirs) was a lot different. The ring was much smaller, dogs seemed to lack any real energy or power as they went around and it seemed that a lot of the ASL had a hard time making the turns almost loosing balance.

So if the standards on paper are all the same, why so different when the dogs are in front of you? Also, why the extreme difference in coats??? Sable vs Saddle back and the hair thichness even seems different. 

Blitzen................
The first part of the FCI standard classifies the dog as  "WITH WORKING TRIAL"...... not sure how you're missing this.
In Europe that working trial, can be "herd tending" or can be IPO.

AKC has reduced the GSD to a trotting dog only.

IMO if AKC would require all ASL to have a working trial in advanced obecience, rally, tracking, agility..... something to prove the dog is trainable and had the structure to hold up to its work and also a TT (akc temperament test), . AND if the AKC required hip/elbow certifications..before they could be considered being crowned for Grand Victor. it would be a huge step in the right direction.

Where is that, Kim? I honestly don't see it.  Is this the FCI standard? Is there more than one?

The United Schutzhund Clubs of America (USCA) is a German Shepherd Dog Breed Organization guided by the rules of the organization of origin of the German Shepherd Dog, the “Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (SV)” in Germany. USCA is a member of the “World Union of German Shepherd Dog Clubs” and accepts the bylaws of this organization in regards to the breeding rules of German Shepherd Dogs.

German Shepherd Dog Standard

23.12.2010/EN FCI-Standard N°166

TRANSLATION: Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (SV) E.V. / Original version: (D).

ORIGIN: Germany / DATE OF PUBLICATION OF THE OFFICIAL VALID STANDARD: 11.08.2010.

UTILIZATION: Versatile working, herding and service dog.

 FCI-CLASSIFICATION:              Group      1    Sheepdogs and Cattle Dogs (except Swiss Mountain and Cattle Dogs).

 Section    1    Sheepdogs. With working trial.

Brief historical overview:

According to the official documentation of the Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (SV) e.V. (Society for the German Shepherd Dog, “SV” for short) – legal domicile in Augsburg, Germany, member of the Verband für das Deutsche Hundewesen (VDH, German Kennel Club) – the “SV” as the founding club of the breed is responsible for the breed standard of the German Shepherd Dog. Established in the first General Meeting at Frankfurt/Main on 20 September 1899 according to suggestions by A. Meyer and Max von Stephanitz and in addition to the amendments of the 6^th General Meeting on 28 July 1901, the 23^rd General Meeting at Cologne/Rhineland on 17 September 1909, the Executive Board & Advisory Board Meeting at Wiesbaden on 5 September 1930 and the Breeding Committee & Executive Board Meeting on 25 March 1961, revisions were resolved within the framework of the World Union of German Shepherd Dog Clubs (WUSV) Meeting on 30 August 1976.

Revisions and catalogued measures were resolved with the Enabling Resolution through the Executive Board and Advisory Board from 23/24 March 1991, amended through the Federal Conventions from 25 May 1997 and 31 May/1 June 2008.

The German Shepherd Dog, whose methodical breeding was started in 1899 after the foundation of the society, had been bred from the central German and southern German breeds of the herding dogs existing at that time with the ultimate objective of creating a working dog inclined to high achievements. In order to achieve this objective, the breed standard of the German Shepherd Dog was determined, which relates to the physical constitution as well as the traits and characteristics.

General appearance

The German Shepherd Dog is medium-size, slightly elongated, powerful and well-muscled, with dry bone and firm overall structure.

Important dimensional ratios 

The height at the withers amounts to 60 cm to 65 cm for male dogs and 55 cm to 60 cm for female dogs. The trunk length exceeds the dimension at the height at the withers by about 10 – 17 %.

Character

The German Shepherd Dog must be well-balanced (with strong nerves) in terms of character, self-assured, absolutely natural and (except for a stimulated situation) good-natured as well as attentive and willing to please. He must possess instinctive behaviour, resilience and self-assurance in order to be suitable as a companion, guard, protection, service and herding dog.

Head

The head is wedge-shaped, and in proportion to the body size (length about 40 % at the height at the withers), without being plump or too elongated, dry in the overall appearance and moderately broad between the ears. Seen from the front and side, the forehead is only slightly arched and without any or with only a slightly indicated middle furrow.

The ratio from the cranial region to the facial region is 50 % to 50 %. The width of the cranial region more or less corresponds to the length of the cranial region. The cranial region (seen from above) tapers evenly towards the nasal bridge with gradually sloping, not sharply depicted stop in the wedge-shaped facial region (foreface) of the head. Upper and lower jaws are powerfully developed.

The nasal dorsum is straight, any dip or bulge is undesirable. The lips are taut, close well and are of dark colouring.

The nose must be black.

The teeth must be strong, healthy and complete (42 teeth according to the dental formula). The German Shepherd Dog has a scissor bite, i.e. the incisors must interlock like scissors, whereby the incisors of the upper jaw overlap those of the lower jaw. Occlusal overlay, overbite and retrusive occlusion as well as larger spaces between the teeth (gaps) are faulty. The straight dental ridge of the incisors is also faulty. The jaw bones must be strongly developed so that the teeth can be deeply embedded in the dental ridge.

The eyes are of medium size, almond-shaped, slightly slanted and not protruding. The colour of the eyes should be as dark as possible. Light, piercing eyes are undesirable since they impair the dog’s impression.

Ears - The German Shepherd Dog has erect ears of medium size, which are carried upright and aligned (not drawn-in laterally); they are pointed and with the auricle facing forward.

Tipped ears and drooping ears are faulty. Ears carried rearward when moving or in relaxed position are not faulty.

Neck - The neck should be strong, well-muscled and without loose neck skin (dewlap). The angulation towards the trunk (horizontal) amounts to approx. 45 %.

Body - The upper line runs from the base of the neck via the high, long withers and via the straight back towards the slightly sloping croup, without visible interruption. The back is moderately long, firm, strong and well-muscled. The loin is broad, short, strongly developed and well-muscled. The croup should be long and slightly sloping (approx 23° to the horizontal) and the upper line should merge into the base of the tail without interruption.

The chest should be moderately broad, the lower chest as long and pronounced as possible. The depth of the chest should amount to approx. 45 % to 48 % of the height at the withers.

The ribs should feature a moderate curvature; a barrel-shaped chest is just as faulty as flat ribs.

The tail extends at least to the hock, but not beyond the middle of the hind pastern. It has slightly longer hair on the underside and is carried hanging downward in a gentle curve, whereby in a state of excitement and in motion it is raised and carried higher, but not beyond the horizontal. Operative corrections are forbidden. 

Limbs

Forequarters - The forelimbs are straight when seen from all sides, and absolutely parallel when seen from the front. 

Shoulder blade and upper arm are of equal length, and firmly attached to the trunk by means of powerful musculature. The angulation from shoulder blade and upper arm is ideally 90°, but generally up to 110°.

The elbows may not be turned out either while standing or moving, and also not pushed in. The forearms are straight when seen from all sides, and absolutely parallel to each other, dry and firmly muscled. The pastern has a length of approx. 1/3 of the forearm, and has an angle of approx. 20° to 22° to the forearm. A slanted pastern (more than 22°) as well as a steep pastern (less than 20°) impairs the suitability for work, particularly the stamina.

The paws are rounded, well-closed and arched; the soles are hard, but not brittle. The nails are strong and of dark colour.

Hindquarters

The position of hind legs is slightly backwards, whereby the hind limbs are parallel to each other when seen from the rear. Upper leg and lower leg are of approximately the same length and form an angle of approx. 120°; the legs are strong and well-muscled. 

The hocks are strongly developed and firm; the hind pastern stands vertically under the hock.

The paws are closed, slightly arched; the pads are hard and of dark colour; the nails are strong, arched and also of dark colour.

Gait

The German Shepherd Dog is a trotter. The limbs must be coordinated in length and angulations so that the dog can shift the hindquarters towards the trunk without any essential change of the top line and can reach just as far with the forelimbs. Any tendency towards over-angulation of the hindquarters reduces the stability and the stamina, and thereby the working ability. Correct body proportions and angulations results in a gait that is far-reaching and flat over the ground which conveys the impression of effortless forward movements. The head pushed forward and the slightly raised tail result in a consistent, smooth trot showing a gently curved, uninterrupted upper line from the ear tips over the neck and back to the end of the tail.

Skin - The skin is (loosely) fitting, but without forming any folds.

Coat

Hair texture

Hair: 

The German Shepherd Dog is bred in the hair varieties double coat and long and harsh outer coat – both with undercoat. 

Double coat:

The guard hair should be as dense as possible, particularly harsh and close fitting: short on the head, including the inside of the ears, short on the front side of the legs, paws and toes, some-what longer and more strongly covered in hair on the neck. On the back side of the legs the hair extends to the carpal joint or the hock; it forms moderate ‘trousers’ on the back side of the haunches.

Long and harsh outer coat:

The guard hair should be long, soft and not close fitting, with tufts on the ears and legs, bushy trousers and bushy tail with downward formation of tuft. Short on the head, including the inside of the ears, on the front side of the legs, on the paws and toes, somewhat longer and more strongly covered in hair on the neck, almost forming a mane. On the back side of the legs the hair extends to the carpal joint or the hock and forms clear trousers on the back side of the haunches.

Colors

Colors are black with reddish-brown, brown and yellow to light grey markings; single-colored black, grey with darker shading, black saddle and mask. Unobtrusive, small white marks on chest as well as very light color on insides are permissible, but not desirable. The tip of the nose must be black in all colors. Dogs with lack of mask, light to piercing eye color, as well as with light to whitish markings on the chest and the insides, pale nails and red tip of tail are considered to be lacking in pigmentation. The undercoat shows a light greyish tone.  The color white is not allowed.

Size/weight

Male dogs:

Height at the withers: 60 cm to 65 cm

Weight: 30 kg to 40 kg

Female dogs:

Height at the withers: 55 cm to 60 cm

Weight: 22 kg to 32 kg

Testicles

Male dogs should have two obviously normally developed testicles which are completely in the scrotum.

Faults

Any deviation from the aforementioned points should be considered as a fault whose evaluation should be in exact proportion to the degree of deviation.

Serious faults

Deviations from the above-described breed characteristics which impair the working capability.

Faulty ears: ears set too low laterally, tipped ears, inward constricted ears, ears not firm

Considerable pigment deficiencies.

Severely impaired overall stability.

Dental faults:

All deviations from scissor bite and dental formula insofar as it does not involve eliminating faults (see the following)

Eliminating faults

a)      Dogs with weak character and weak nerves which bite

b)      Dogs with proven “severe hip dysplasia”

c)       Monorchid or cryptorchid dogs as well as dogs with clearly dissimilar or atrophied testicles

d)      Dogs with disfiguring ears or tail faults

e)      Dogs with malformations

f)       Dogs with dental faults, with lack of:

1 premolar 3 and another tooth, or

1 canine tooth, or

1 premolar 4, or

1 molar 1 or molar 2, or

a total of 3 teeth or more

g)      Dogs with jaw deficiencies:

Overshot by 2 mm and more, undershot, level bite in the entire incisor region

h)      Dogs with oversize or undersize by more than 1 cm

i)        Albinism

j)        White hair colour (also with dark eyes and nails)

k)      Long Straight Topcoat without undercoat

l)        Long-haired (long, soft guard hair without undercoat, mostly parted in the middle of the back, tufts on the ears  

 

I can't delete the rest of this, pay no attention.

 

 

	Jun 2014					>>
Sun	Mon	Tue	Wed	Thu	Fri	Sat
1	2	3	4	5	Club Trial	Mountaineer SchH Club – Club Trial
8	9	10	11	12	13	14 Iowa Hundesport – Club Trial   Metro-Detroit SchH Club – Club Trial
15	16	17	18	19	20 Empire Working Dog Club – Club Trial   OG Buckeye – Club Trial	21 Alaska GDI – Club Trial
22	23	24	25	26	27	28 North Western Regional Conformation Show & Breed Survey   San Diego Diensthund Club Trial
29	30	1	2	3	4

 

 

I agree about the GV requirement and so do a lot of other GSDCA members. Most of the GSDCA current awards do have requirements. When my female earned the Award of Merit she needed to have ceritifed hips and elbows and have passed the temperament test and have AKC OB titles. Then she earned their 1st Dual Award of Merit and she had to be a CH with multiple OB titles (they counted her BH and AD) with good hips and elbows and have passed the GSDCA temperament test. Believe it or not, there are not that many CH's with BH's and AD's; I think she might be the only living Am bred CH with a BH and an AD., but I'm not sure. The training club I belonged to stressed training ASL's in German venues as well as AKC venues. Some of the GSDCA awards aren't all that easy to get.

Can a GSD in the GSDCA system become Champion, Victor or Grand Victor without hips/elbow, perfect dentition, temperament test and some type of working title?

In SV (FCI) system all GSD's must have a basic tempermant test (BH which is actually obedience and temperament) Herding title OR Endurance test (12 mile trot) IPO title of at least level 2 AND passing hips/elbow, perfect dentition and breed survey to become VA (Excellent Select).

Dogs over 2 years of age, cannot be show in a "real class" without titles.
And dogs over 3.5 years cannot ge shown with out a breed survey.

In many European countries, GSD's cannot be registered without both parents having breed surveys prior to conception of the litter. This has been going on for 100 years....

 

 

Kim you know nothing is required by AKC to earn a CH title or to be bred. The GSDCA is an AKC member club. As such it must follow the AKC rules. It can only make it's own rules for special club awards like the ones I mentioned above. The GSDCA could say I had to show them an OFA report in order to get my dog's cerificate and they did say that. The AKC would never allow that.  

I think selects must have clear hips and elbows, they are considered non-regular classes by AKC and are exempt from their rules. GV's could also be required to have normal hips and elbows also a non-regular AKC class, but the members of the GSDCA won't vote for it. You can probably figure out why. Non regular classes are generally allowed by AKC at specialty shows since the winners are not eligible to compete for BOB or BOS.

It's confusing and not a great way to insure that the dogs are the best they can be. The SV only has one breed to rule over and they own the registration in Germany. Want to register litter with the SV, you have to do it their way. AKC has hundreds of breeds under their umbrella, they depend on the parent clubs to encourage their members to do the right thing. It's a broken system that will never be fixed. Rather than critsize the GSDCA 24/7 I'd rather take a different route and hope they will do what's best for the breed as much as AKC will let them.

Sure some ASL dogs are very flawed, but not all of them and it's not fair to dump on the entire ASL population. There are some substandard GSL's too with phoney titles, everyone here knows that. Still there are some pretty good GSL dogs around, your Elle for example. 

"The AKC would never allow that. "

And this is why a special GSDCA working dog committe is destine to fail.

Thank you, Elle is a 1 in a million.

Well, maybe you're right, Kim, I hope not.