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by VonIsengard on 28 August 2013 - 18:08
I found this information posted on a training group I admin on. The group owner found this posting on "positive only" groups. If you have any online videos that show you issuing any kind of correction, BEWARE!
"Youtube videos are being gathered to be used in a documentary film about dominance and "abusive" dog training methods. This can include any dog training technique that isn't considered very modern "force-free" or R+/-P ONLY techniques or tools. I know many of you own Youtube channels and broadcast yourselves and your businesses so I am just putting this out there for everyone to be aware of what they are looking for.
"I'm making a documentary in dominance based training techniques and abuse training, and I need lots of help.
My documentary's purpose is to educate people on why dominance based training is wrong morally & scientifically, to encourage them to seek trainers with credentials or or force free trainers, to make force based training more controversial(it needs negative press) and to highlight a better way to train and rehabilitate dogs.
I have secured an interview with the owner of Shadow. Yes, Cesar Millan's Shadow. He hates Millan's methods and is willing to speak out. I intend on interviewing Jean Donaldson, Dr. Sophia Yin, Ian Dunbar, Victoria Stilwell, and Dr. David Mech if I can get a hold of them and arrange a film crew's transport.
I'm also taking interviews from a rescue and from regular people who have bad experiences with force training.
Sure we all know Cesar Millan and Brad Pattison, but I need lots of force based training footage and dumbinance mumbo jumbo in order to make this film.
How you can help right now: I need youtube videos of force based training that look bad to the non trainer. I need to make it clear why force is bad to a person who IS NOT extremely knowledgeable on dog behavior. Cesar helps, but also we need non Cesar too. It won't be a good film if we only focus on one or two guys.
Alpha rolls, scruff shakes, corrections, harshness, general animal cruelty, etc. I need excellent footage. Please help.
Later, I may ask for more help in other ways. I am trying to make this film a contestant at Sundance, so it'll be a long road. Thank everyone for any help in advance."
"Youtube videos are being gathered to be used in a documentary film about dominance and "abusive" dog training methods. This can include any dog training technique that isn't considered very modern "force-free" or R+/-P ONLY techniques or tools. I know many of you own Youtube channels and broadcast yourselves and your businesses so I am just putting this out there for everyone to be aware of what they are looking for.
"I'm making a documentary in dominance based training techniques and abuse training, and I need lots of help.
My documentary's purpose is to educate people on why dominance based training is wrong morally & scientifically, to encourage them to seek trainers with credentials or or force free trainers, to make force based training more controversial(it needs negative press) and to highlight a better way to train and rehabilitate dogs.
I have secured an interview with the owner of Shadow. Yes, Cesar Millan's Shadow. He hates Millan's methods and is willing to speak out. I intend on interviewing Jean Donaldson, Dr. Sophia Yin, Ian Dunbar, Victoria Stilwell, and Dr. David Mech if I can get a hold of them and arrange a film crew's transport.
I'm also taking interviews from a rescue and from regular people who have bad experiences with force training.
Sure we all know Cesar Millan and Brad Pattison, but I need lots of force based training footage and dumbinance mumbo jumbo in order to make this film.
How you can help right now: I need youtube videos of force based training that look bad to the non trainer. I need to make it clear why force is bad to a person who IS NOT extremely knowledgeable on dog behavior. Cesar helps, but also we need non Cesar too. It won't be a good film if we only focus on one or two guys.
Alpha rolls, scruff shakes, corrections, harshness, general animal cruelty, etc. I need excellent footage. Please help.
Later, I may ask for more help in other ways. I am trying to make this film a contestant at Sundance, so it'll be a long road. Thank everyone for any help in advance."
by VonIsengard on 28 August 2013 - 18:08
By the way, I am no fan of Milan OR Pattinson, but any one of us who uses correction could be targeted. Be careful.
by gagsd4 on 28 August 2013 - 19:08
Interesting. Yin is far from force-free.
by Hired Dog on 28 August 2013 - 20:08
I wonder if this person realizes and understands that there is no such thing as "positive only" training anywhere. I wonder if they understand there are 3 other quadrants to the puzzle, I wonder if they understand that saying "NO" or blocking the dog or not giving it its cookie IS indeed a correction.
I also wonder if they understand that anyone who calls themselves a trainer knows that training only works because of consequences, both good for doing and bad for not doing...
I would love to star in her movie and sit down for an interview...I just have a simple question to ask.."How do you proof your dogs"?
I also wonder if they understand that anyone who calls themselves a trainer knows that training only works because of consequences, both good for doing and bad for not doing...
I would love to star in her movie and sit down for an interview...I just have a simple question to ask.."How do you proof your dogs"?
by gagsd4 on 28 August 2013 - 20:08
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUCl6ndLN7Q
I am not saying this is "wrong" or that I disagree or agree.... just that Yin is not PP.
I am not saying this is "wrong" or that I disagree or agree.... just that Yin is not PP.
by Blitzen on 28 August 2013 - 22:08
They don't realize anything, Hired Dog. I belong to another breed board that is populated by bleeding hearts who think that working as cashiers and trainers at PetSmart makes them experts on how to train dogs in any venue. Mostly young females under the age of 25. No prongs, no choke collars,no electronics, no physical corrections, only praise and rewards. It may also be prudent to watch out for unknown persons with video cameras at trials. Some think that protection, AKC OB, and conformation events are forms of cruelty to animals. The WUSV and the GSDCA National could attract people like that too. And there is a very irrational hatred of CM; some will stop at nothing to discredit him.
Thanks, VonIsengard, very valuable information .
Thanks, VonIsengard, very valuable information .
by Keith Grossman on 29 August 2013 - 10:08
"No prongs, no choke collars,no electronics, no physical corrections, only praise and rewards."
And "gentle" leaders, I bet!
And "gentle" leaders, I bet!
by Blitzen on 29 August 2013 - 12:08
Gentle leaders and flat buckle collars 
by erin j on 29 August 2013 - 14:08
I have an idea for her ending scene in her "Sundance contender"... She can get in a pen with a highly aggressive, untrained, dominate dog, with her gentle leader and bag of cookies..Lets see how well that works out for her..
by Konotashi on 30 August 2013 - 05:08
I wonder if the person making this documentary has worked with any breeds that NEED this type of training, or has seen the value it holds when done correctly.
IMO, positive ONLY training can cause more stress on a dog than a mix of positive/negative. A dog (of any breed, really) needs to know what it's doing wrong and will stress itself out to only try to do the right thing. By showing them what they're doing wrong, they can stop doing that and try something else that will be more likely to be what the handler/trainer is looking for. Given, every dog of every breed will need a differing amount of negative reinforcement, but it's essential in any training program.
That's just my $.02....
IMO, positive ONLY training can cause more stress on a dog than a mix of positive/negative. A dog (of any breed, really) needs to know what it's doing wrong and will stress itself out to only try to do the right thing. By showing them what they're doing wrong, they can stop doing that and try something else that will be more likely to be what the handler/trainer is looking for. Given, every dog of every breed will need a differing amount of negative reinforcement, but it's essential in any training program.
That's just my $.02....
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