6 1/2 month shepherd pup with defense - Page 1

Would like to share some impressions about my puppy if anyone can shed some light..
he is 6 and a half months and few days
Could he already be displaying defense?
i got him for top sport and not sure what to expect at this point; since a very early age he wouldn't want to be petted by people. He is social in the sense I can take him to places and he acts indifferent; different scenarios include streets, petsmart, gas stations; he is fine in any situation; solid nerves; narrow aisles in petsmart full of people, he gets through no problem. gast stations with cars, trucks pulling in and out, he is indifferent.  Noises, thunder.. indifferent.  If someone tries to interact with him, he ignores the person, if the person insists he will give a warning "dont come near me" type.  Took him to the vet for an ear infection; the vet could only examine him with me holding him and literally yell at him "no, it's okay", and reluctantly he let the vet examine the ear. In the vet's office he was fine walking to the counter, squeezing through people with their dogs and going through a hallway to the exam room.. a man approached him with the "hey puppy attitude" and he put out a growl that became a bark when the guy insisted in approaching the pup; he is a slim 70 lb with thick frame and bony but very much  a pup in looks, you would never expect that sort of behavior.
Had to be kenneled for four days; no one was able to feed him or pet him not until the last day.  Of course, the question came that he needs to be socialized and be brought to people, puppy classes, and that I have a problem in my hands, that he will bite one day... all type of comments who don't know working dogs.  At home he is incredibly good with my family and treats everyone with respect.  An incident with a contractor once who came to greet my wife and the dog got in between at four months and start growling with hair up in typical defense mode.. if kenneled and senses a stranger or something unusual he would bark; you would not think it is a six month old pup
I've worked on his prey since I got him at 9 weeks; he showed initial interest in the rag and tugged a little initially but has never displayed a solid interest in prey work;  ball on a rope he's always gone for the string, never the ball, and he would never play tug with me; he makes a strange face to avoid the grip if that makes sense; he almost has a full set of teeth  now with no anatomic faults and I will resume attempts to do bite work with him in play mode. I havent' done anything but throwing sticks or the ball for a month now.  It has been very difficult unlike other dogs i've had who took an interest on tugging very early on.  And not to mention, it is very frustating.  I've taken him to a club initially for the socialization aspect and all that and again he is completely stable.
I have never had a dog like this if I may say.  
At a personal level with me, he is like a big baby, very puppyish who just wants to put his paws on lap and typical crazy jumping to get on my face type thing when we play; he is intelligent, knows what's right and wrong and listens; he understands kennel, car and home very well; but when it comes to take the tug or the ball he won't engage.. I can throw it and he will chase and lay with it for a bit and abandon..

I am not sure what to do.. if there's prey inside to be brought out or whether he is the defense end of the prey-defense balance..
I've had dogs that were very high prey; went as far as schI training with a particular dog; very easy to train for that reason, but this guy is a puzzle..
I have been suggested to bring my pup to an experienced helper, that he will be able to bring the prey out..

I would appreciate any insight and experiences with similar dogs. thank you for your patience reading my post.
thank you.

I would like to know how much you want for him.    

I had one like that from about 4-5mos. on- totally indifferent, unshakeable, but never, ever, a day in his life, wanted to be touched by strangers. Started growling at people in pet stores at about 18 weeks (ONLY if they pestered him- he was the definition of aloof and indifferent unless pestered), by 6mos. no one with half a brain would push the issue. He was EXACTLY as you describe in your first several paragraphs. I can help you a bit if you want to do sport, but honestly, this type dog is just not going to take you very far in sport if you're not very patient. Mine had more prey drive, but the issues was getting him to "play a game" so to speak, with a stranger. Just not interested. Many a decoy felt silly trying to get him to engage in a game of tug. He did fine in bitework, ended up being a very, very strong dog with rock solid nerves; we just had to wait until decoys were comfortable working him in the manner he was begging to be worked, and that wasn't until he was much older and it took a special type trainer, very very knowledgeable and a bit unconventional (or should I say less trendy?) but once he got going, he really got going. 

Now, let me see that pedigree, and let's make plans for me to pick him up at the airport!  Seriously, I would like to see his pedigree if you don't mind. I've been searching for a dog like this since I lost my last...the dog in my avatar. 

Let me take back what I wrote, it looks like your puppy is lacking any prey?! Sorry I should have read the last two paragraphs.
Well Yes you are right, you will have to let him mature more and work him a way where he feels comfortable to exhibit prey drive. So I would have to see for myself to really pass a judgment but your puppy is not balanced at all, or going through a fear stage and all is personal to him and with maturity he will hopefully find some balance through proper training.
You can try to work on the toy drive, ball drive... but it will take some time. Some dogs have it, some have to be little developed. I have a female here that is civil as can be, the grip suffers, toy drive is lower but we managed to developed some nice possessive behavior with some toys and now (after 2 years, no kidding here) she carries it around, calmly, nicely and even will initiate tugging with me.

You are right your puppy is not the ideal balance for sport or for "other" venues as he is probably not initiating much on his own. But it can be worked with the correct approach and you still can have a good dog to do sport. You just probably need to learn to work together and develop all the potential this puppy has.

What you are describing is not the ideal dog by any means but as long as he has good nerves, is confident (with time and experience) he fill be fine. All needs to be forward with him in all venues.. quitting should not be an option as he will most likely work for you, not for the toy (this is an assumption from your post). I am sure you guys will be fine.


Good luck with your puppy.

Thank you for the comments; gsdpack I agree he is lacking balance as far as drives, although he has a good brain; he is discriminative and excellent family dog, and I am almost pretty sure he will be 100% protective.  The instance where he stood between the man and my wife is very unusual for a pup.  That was not fear, he could've coward and try to run or hide behind my wife, but defense; he felt a threat and got defensive in the true meaning of he word.  However I can take him to a park on a leash and he'd be completely content to be with his pack, and not care at all about what's around, that is, no fear..
Maybe a fear stage.., but I'm not so sure..
I asked for a dual purpose prospect at the beginning, I believe only dual purpose prospects are candidates for top sport, and I'm a little frustated that this dog is not balanced in those regards. His very early personality is what I'm seeing now.
The purpose of my post was to see if anyone has had experiences with these type of pups where prey "magically" surfaces at some point, for which I am still hoping
thank you

Thank you for the comments; gsdpack I agree he is lacking balance as far as drives, although he has a good brain; he is discriminative and excellent family dog, and I am almost pretty sure he will be 100% protective.  The instance where he stood between the man and my wife is very unusual for a pup.  That was not fear, he could've coward and try to run or hide behind my wife, but defense; he felt a threat and got defensive in the true meaning of he word.  However I can take him to a park on a leash and he'd be completely content to be with his pack, and not care at all about what's around, that is, no fear..
Maybe a fear stage.., but I'm not so sure..
I asked for a dual purpose prospect at the beginning, I believe only dual purpose prospects are candidates for top sport, and I'm a little frustated that this dog is not balanced in those regards. His very early personality is what I'm seeing now.
The purpose of my post was to see if anyone has had experiences with these type of pups where prey "magically" surfaces at some point, for which I am still hoping
thank you

I like this kind of dog...

They are not difficult to train, but different.
During maturing they need a lot of ego-boost and support, but at the end and raised well you´ll have a great dog.
They tend to become a " one man/woman dog ", so it´s always important to watch his behavior within your family.
"Prey-drive" may develop later on, the more stable they become, the easier it will be.
Training for bitework within IPO - no tug games.
Make him feel comfortable within the club and its surrounding.
I started training 2 of this kind in the age of 8 months.
Start training during dark, the helper moving around, looking strange for your dog.
At first he only needs to be alert - one bark and the helper has to run away, 3 or 4 times.
He needs to get the feeling that he chased him.
During every lesson the helper may come closer.
One day he´ll be ready for the bite - we used the puppy sleeve for a while.
The most important part - any corrections NEVER from the helper, ONLY from you - bitework is no game for your dog.
Your ( IPO ) helper might be surprised about your idea, but he´ll hopefully acknowledge fast what to do.

Only for the report:
The first dog of mine achieved 98 points in bitework when he was 2 years old, the second I donated to a friend when I became pregnant - 6 months later she was able to take part at the Landesgroup trial with him successfully.
As I said earlier - these dogs are different, but they are great!

 

Maxll,
I agree with Martina (GSDpack) about the dog lacking in prey and that should be developed.  I have some experience in dealing with dogs with this type of temperament.  I am currently training one that is highly defensive and lower in prey.  The handler / owner has done a great job in bringing out the prey and ball drive.  The dog does awesome obedience when trained with food and now is becoming driven for various toys.  I have also owned a dog similar to this only much more aggressive and extremely civil, there was absolutely an underlying insecurity in this dog which triggered the aggression and rage.  That dog had a load of prey and defensive, but the aggression was extreme as a pup.  I did SchH with this dog and titled him to a SchH 3.  Initially the dog viewed the decoy very seriously and he scared a lot of decoys with his intense rage.  Later, he learned that it was ok to work in prey and enjoyed the sport.  He would absolutely intimidate new helpers and get dirty leaving them rattled.  

I would say to be patient with the dog and continue to work on his ball drive.  Keep the training sessions short and high energy.  Initially, you may have to praise and reward for just picking the ball up or just chasing the ball.  Keep the excitement level high and end the session quickly on a high note.  Gradually up the ante and make the dog work for the ball and praise like he just gave you the winning power ball ticket.  I would tease and have the toy (ball or tug) attached to a line or flirt pole and make him chase it.  

Regarding his aggression he may be going through a fear stage, but I am inclined to think he has an underlying insecurity that he brings forward as aggression.  Please do not take that as a knock against your dog.  It is what it is; properly managed, conditioned and trained it can be a very positive thing.  Not all dogs fold when nervous or unsure, some go forward with aggression as a way to resolve conflict.  Based on your description of what happened at the vet I am thinking the dog is a little insecure and will become sharp when challenged or approached by a stranger.  Now, is the time to address this inappropriate aggression and get a handle on it.   Please be very careful with some of the responses that you may receive on internet forums when it comes to dealing with aggression and your dog's reaction to strangers.  

I see that you mentioned that you wanted a "dual purpose" prospect and the fact that your puppy lacks prey drive is a concern.  I will say that "dual purpose" prospects don't often make the best top sport dogs.  I evaluate, test and select "dual purpose" prospects as part of my job.  I also do SchH as a hobby.  I can tell you the don't always go together.  It is also difficult to find a "dual purpose" puppy prospect.  I have raised my current "Dual Purpose" Patrol and Narcotics canine from a pup but I knew exactly what I wanted and what to select at 7 weeks.  This dog was started in SchH and would easily have been a National Level SchH dog before I employed him as my Patrol dog.  My current male has a stand offish personality and his own certain "rules" when being approached by strangers.  In the beginning he was a little lacking in prey but at 6 months the prey drive kicked in and he is loaded in both prey and defense now which is critical for a Police K-9.  

I'll be more than happy to offer any advice I can just send me a PM.  

 

Susie,

Sounds like the kind of dog I like. His prey will most likely increase with age and help from you. Just go slow and let him mature. Prey in my opinion is better judged by live animals, rabbits things like that, even a house cat. I'm not saying to turn a rabbit or cat loose to test him, but if you are around those types see how he reacts when he sees them. That is natural prey. I would like to know what he is out of if you can post it.
Hank

Thank you everyone,
slamdunc, about insecurity, I am not really sure I would describe this pup as insecure..
at the vet it was only when someone tried to engage with him that he would give the warning; I walked him to the counter, and through the hallway to the room where he was going to be examined and he was, I would say secure and confident.
At four months he stood between my wife and a man who came to my house to greet my wife and barked..
I have taken him by the e.r. of a hospital with the craziness around and people in and out; it was like he saw through things; but at the prompt "let's go boy" he devoted full attention to me, like a caffeine shot..
Thanks again for all the posts; I also feel this pup needs to mature and eventually taught to play with the sleeve and the decoy, because I think he s really going to go crazy when the protection phase  comes on in the field..