Working is working and show is show - Page 5

OldNew, I have been pondering what you said about testing your dog with a new helper at your home. You have inspired me to do the same. I am heading out right now to get a sleeve from my normal "helper" and I am going to put ol' couch potato through his paces today at home, and see what happens. Now if I can only find a neighbor or someone who isnt afraid to let a 90lb GSD bite them over and over.................

What part of the country are you in, Flip?

"My point is that working lines in general seem to have a higher pain tolerance." (flipfinish) Based on???????

OldNew, I am in Trussville, AL. 30 minutes from where last weeks GSD Nationals were held. LaPorte, I am basing this on my personal experience breeding, training and observing. Do you think I just decided one day to make an off the wall claim that show lines have lower pain tolerance? Again, I havent tested hundreds of dogs, and I dont go around pulling their ears to see which one yelps and which one bites me either. You are free to disagree. I am not here to make enemies. Just stating my opinion.

OldNew, Just got home with the sleeve, I let ol' couch potato see it and he showed some drive?? He started barking and showing prey drive that is..I let him have it and he pranced around the yard with it. The mutt never ceases to keep me on his toes. I can send you an email of some free heeling with him if you can handle a 7 meg email....

Yes send it, I'm on mega-something DSL. I don't know anybody in that area of the country that could help you unfortunately. Just be sure that when you do your test it is with a helper he doesn't know, otherwise it's invalid. If you decide to train him in the area of PPD make sure you get really qualified help. There's too many people that claim to know what they are doing but will really screw up your dog. It's somewhat like schutzhund but with a lot of differences.

Show line dogs are bred to run around in a ring and look pretty, in the process of breeding these so called PERFECT dogs it is forgotten what the original german shepherd was bred for. A german shepherd is to protect its handler in any situation, it was bred to WORK. A perfect german shepherd is one that works and loves to work. They may not look perfect and have the perfect conformation but if my life depended on it I dont care what the dog that saves me looks like as long as the job gets done. Ask any real K9 handler for the police or military. It almost like two different breeds of dogs. In a dog show the german shepherd should be represented by a great police dog or heroic military dog, not a PRETTY dog. If you want to breed Pretty show dogs get a poodle.

The best of all possible worlds is to acquire or breed a great looking GSD with the normal temperament ascribed by Capt. Von Stephanitz. A minority, but still significant percentage of the so called "working lines" or "show lines" have this ideal but normal temperament. Very few so called "working lines" have decent looks and are not even come close to the standard for structure, movement, or even temperament. The few "cross-over" dogs that excel both in the showring (zuchtschau)and protection(profung) are worth their weight in gold. Most show line puppies and older dogs that are sold at low prices are actually culls and typically have less correct temperament and confirmation than the 3-5% which are kept for show. Also, a fair percentage of working line puppies are actually culled for lack of ideal temperament with the ideal 10-15% kept back by the breeder to train for competition and/or later sale at a higher price. There are showline GSDs that have great confirmation (i.e. are great looking) and also have the ideal working temperament Capt. Von Stephanitz prescribed, but these dogs are easily identified by the breeders and are held back to be trained and shown, and perhaps sold at a very high world market price later on. If they are later sold they will bring a very high price, and deservedly so because of their statistical rarity. Unfortunately it's basically a money game of the "golden rule". He who has the gold rules. Many go down the "working lines" road because either they do not have the money to spend to get a show dog that has ideal temeperament, they just don't want to spend their hard earned money that way, or they don't want to spend 10 years getting there breeding while spending a small fortune doing so. If one wants to breed one's way up into top show dogs it typically costs a great deal of money and takes a significant amount of time. Many just do not have the knowledge of what is correct confirmation, movement or temperament to ever be able to breed or acquire the ideal GSD. Many who specialize in working lines really have no idea what good confirmation is or why the standard even exists (there actually are very good functional reasons for it). In order to reduce any cognitive dissonance that might occur with knowledge of the truth they just stubbornly keep insisting that zuchtschau GSDs are weak temperamented and looks don't matter. There are some really great looking West German import GSDs in the USA with excellent temperaments, some from show and some from working lines that just don't get enough deserved recognition. Unfortunately, most so called GSD enthusiasts just don't have enough knowledge of the standard or why it exists to be able to recognize who these dogs are and why they are so great, even when they see them in person. It doesn't matter if a GSD is from working or show, if it is good looking, good moving and has a correct normal temperament it is an ideal dog and deserves to be recognized. Good is just plain good, no matter the source.

Exsusemwa? Very few working lines have decent looks and don't come close to the standard? Huhum, Preston I'm surprised by that, as you seem very smart about what you say here. Who came up with todays standard anyway??? These showline dogs look nothing like the Malinios looking dogs of the past. Working line dogs with flat backs and less bone look more like the Original GSD to me.

4pack, many current w. german zuchtschau dogs do not conform to the FCI standard which specifies a straight back. Roach back are not correct, nor are ovrsized dogs or dogs with short steep croups or back way too long. I am referring to zuchtschau dogs that are correct to the standard and there are a significant number of them in any show. Sometimes they are not in the highest placings which may be politically driven. Capt. Von Stephanitz argued for the continued development of the breed for better strcture and stability of the temperament. I believe that the FCI standrad would be completely acceptable and preferred by Capt. Von Stephanitz if he were alive today. His last preferred GSDs did not look like malinois or stretched taffy long backed GSDs, but rather were heavy boned, deep chested GSDs with increased angulations in the front and rear.