Working is working and show is show - Page 3

i see your point but we must remember that schutzhund has gone from a breed evaluation to a sport. and a piont system is neede to declarea winner. for example i imagine that the back transport was designed to show a dogs ability to control his desire to bite yet be ready for the attack. Now there are many dogs that can perform a functional back transport, but its the dog that is in perfect position that gets more points. to me it makes no difference (functionally) how the job gets done as long as it gets done. Also what are the conformation standards geared toward, is it schtuzhund/police work or herding?

See, that's my point. Now that it's a sport we should start considering how to structure the rules that govern it to embrace a total GSD, what I've been calling the decathlon athlete. Human nature being what it is, as long as the structure of the rules encourages extremism in order to compete successfully, then people will go with the flow and breed extreme dogs that can win! Let me try to use another analogy: The national/international leaders of the breed and sport should be like the commissioner of the National Football League here in the States. They need to structure the rules for the betterment of the game (the breed). That's why I would LOVE to see people wake up and realize that the ideal dog is being taken away from them by these "rule-makers"/"trend-setters".

i was reading some guys website in the UK who was breeding bandogs. and his basic thoery was that function will dictate a form. he says that back in the old days dogs were bred to serve a function and over time a form was born. those that perfomed the best all had something in common. so since he was in the early stages of his breeding, there was not physcial standard only performance. perhaps the GSD should go back to functional based evalulations, including sch. AD, a rigorous temperment test including. that would looks for all the characteristics we want in a GSD. Looks be damned. if a dog cant work, dont breed it, if it cant lay around for 35 min. in a room full of people dont breed it, if it cant complete...lets say 4 AD's ver 6 days dont breed it. basically only breed those that pass all phases. id be willing to say in 8-10 generations we'd see the show dogs that cant work dissappear as well as the working dogs that are too high drive to be companions. there will always be a demand for a dog that simply looks good, or a dog that is very high drive. but i think that is how we get the total GSD and close the divide. but like he Bandof folks we need to define the function, breed for it and let a form reveal itself just my 2 cents

The first thing that would have to be done is recognize and reward the performance in show and conformation in work. Let their be one standard whereby both lines are judged. It's set up like this but really it's not enforced like this. As long as there are two sets of criteria, there will be two distinct lines. The basic problem is show and working lines are judged by different criteria in both the show ring and trial field. There's just two standards. Aside from making that change. I believe a show dog that can compete in the ring at a national level and on the field at a regional level or a working line dog that competes nationally at trials and regionally in conformation is attainable. The dogs are there. Look and you will find them. I would start with the genetics that produce real working ability in the conformation line or real conformation in the working line and go from there. Not saying mix the two, just recognize the lines are split and breed the best examples of what you prefer. The next obstacle is where would you find an owner or handler that could take a pup and develop it's working ability and show training harmoniously as the dog develops? Is there a group of people that can mingle both and still train to the national level? Some are closer than others. Back to the question, My thoughts would be to find your preferred line and seek the accomplished breeders that share the same objectives that you share. In the conformation lines, there are some breeders that breed for working ability, some that breed strictly for show and some that breed for both. Just look at the results and see what kennels are producing what you are looking for and start there.

I ABSOLUTELY Beleive the German Shepherd Dog was/is intended to be a complete package. Beauty, Brains, Health, Stamina, Drive, Correct in Structure, and most importantly Correct in Temperament. They do exist!! weather workingline breeders or showline breeders want to admit it or not, They DO !! I ABSOLUTELY Beleive these dogs were never intended to be "locked up in kennels" in order for them to "work" they're intended Job. These dogs "perform" much more desireably ( in my experience) when they are FAMILY FIRST, working partner, show candidate, or sport enthusiast trained as they're secondary function. Yes you can make them more "hard" But how appropriate is that dogs Temperament around children when they rush in to wrap they're arms around the dogs neck ? I ABSOLUTELY beleive that a dogs full potential will only be found so long as he/she has an owner with the desire to find it and see it through !!!! Dedication on the part of the owner is as important as any strong characteristic in any Breed or Breed Line. well that's my 25 cents, Here comes the lashing, LOL :-)

OldNewGuyMC To your original question... What would I advise you... well I would honestly advise you to find THAT dog, Find the dog that has been responsibly bred to most match what your looking for. It took me a while but I found them, I mean my match for me personally. (much the description above) Look long and hard, and do your homework, And be prepared to be dissapointed, But also be prepared to be surprised, I think you will find that more and more breeders are breeding for the "complete" GSD. I will also wish you the best of luck and ask that you keep us all posted on your endeavor !! I would love to see you succeed to your fullest potential !! :-)

So funny! Why dont we all pitch in and rent a German physicist to re-create the breed for us?! Sheesh! Why is it so hard to admit that the "TOTAL GSD" is closer to a pipe dream than a reality. Not because of the dog, but because of humans. Humans are breeding the GSD right into heck because of the almighty dollar. I have seen hard working show lines, but they are all dead or almost dead. The new fad is good looking and pathetic in the ring (I KNOW, I KNOW, THERE ARE EXCPETIONS). Smart working line people wont waste time intermixing for the "perfect GSD because to us we already have it in the lines we use for work. If their are so many wonderful show line workers out there then why does the U.S. Military, Federal and Local law enforcement, and any other such organization use hardcore working lines, or now going to the Malinois? Can anyone answer that? It is because even some of the highest level working dogs washout of the programs, show lines have no chance. I own one, one from great lineage and seiger winners and Sch 3 parents (i think they bought the titles), and I know. I spent hours trying to build ball drive, build prey drive, build, build, build. Horse manure! I want to spend my time training. There isnt a middle ground until someone wants to spend about 20 years painstakingly rebuilding what we (humans) have bred out of the showlines. If you dont agree, PROVE me wrong. Not with puppies who you think are doing well, I want DOGS, I want videos of obedience, protection, and tracking. ALL PHASES. Show me more than a handful of really good show line workers and I will retract my statement. Until then, lets just all get along, and make the most of our individual dogs and have some stinking fun with them. Isnt that why we do this? I see more people on this board with a genuine love for the breed it makes me smile. Wasting time trying to figure this out is fun to talk about, but no one will ever agree totally. Even if everyone else in the world decides to agree, I will mess it all up cause I never will! It is too much fun to be stubborn! LOL!

Hey flip, I'm beginning to understand that when you use the word work you mean schutzhund and only schutzhund. I guess you don't consider herding as work? The reason I ask is this: Your statements> "Even a hardcore working dog guy like me realizes that now that I have a family with small kids, the dogs I once loved are not practical anymore." I took that to mean that you are allowing that there is room for a working dog that won't win the BSP? And especially when I saw this:> "my beloved couch potato/Arlett/Mittelwest show male. He will defend the family, and is rock solid with the kids." But then you say this:> "made this mistake and bought an Arlett/Mittelwest male, everything in the pedigree was Sch 3 and the mother produced the 2000 siegerin (sp?), but my male has no real working drives." First, I would say don't judge all showlines by your dog. Second, maybe you're a lot closer to the golden middle than you think. Your wife is happy with your showdog, right? An he'll protect your family and kids and is rock solid with the kids. Let's say hypothetically that you had this dog tested for herding and got a good evaluation. Then he was trained, got his HGH and could do a good job. Would you still say he wasn't a working dog? Or that he's from a showline that can't work? If so, then your definition of work, working dog and working line is too narrow. It seems to me that you are restricting those definitions ONLY to a dog that can win MAJOR titles in the schutzhund ring. But you said yourself that:> "Even a hardcore working dog guy like me realizes that now that I have a family with small kids, the dogs I once loved are not practical anymore." Obviously you agree that top competition schutzhund dogs are not for everybody. So what would you have those people do- own a different breed? I submit to you that todays top schutzhund dogs are the ones that are the offshoot of the real breed, or as the TV industry likes to call it a "spinoff".

Top Showline Breeder(VA & V ) told me once>> While working and you accidently hit the dog the Showline will quit while the workingline keeps fighting. That was one difference he mentioned......

DR that's a very broad generalisation. There may be some of that sure, but there are also plenty of so called working line sport schutzhund dogs that will turn tail and run if the decoy doesn't have a sleeve or the scenario presented to the dog is not what he constantly trains for. Those type of broad brush statements are unfair to both sides. It reminds me of these middle eastern types that say Americans are soft until the 82nd Airborne lands on their head and proves otherwise. But are there plenty of Americans that are soft? Of course. I don't think I expressed that too clearly but I'm sure you get the point.