Let's talk about Elbows - Page 1

As to not muddy the water any further on another message on the board I wanted to start a new one and talk about Elbows. I am the proud owner of a 1/2 German showline and 1/2 German working line male that has 2 Grade II DJD Elbows. He is currently 2 1/2 years old, I do not see any signs that the Elbows bother him, he runs, jumps and walks normal. I have supplemented with Glucosamine since he was 1 year old due to a torn ACL and surgery to replace the ACL. I know there are no surgical treatments that are out there for DJD. I don't consider this a death sentence for my dog. The only thing I can do is keen him lean and in shape and hope that he will have alot of golden years. Can a bad Xray on the Elbows have less than favorable results from the OFA. His hip which I was more worried about certified OFA Fair. Have your had a dog that had 2 bad elbows? How did it affect his life as he got older? Why do you think with the many years that Hips have been a concern in the GSD that it is just in the past few years that Elbows are being Xrayed and Graded? Do you think that Elbow problems are going to be as hard or harded to elimnate as HD? Woud you bred a dog that had say 1 elbow with Grade I DJD at say 3 years of age. Just curious what people's feeling are in regards to Elbows.

Hi, I have a male that turned 12 years in March. He was diagnosed by OFA with hip displasia and 1 bad elbow at about 2 1/2 years of age. He was extremely athletic as a young dog, I used him for SAR for 2 years until he was 5 years old. And at 6 years he got his Sch 1. He has been a wonderful dog and I wouldnt have traded him in for clear dog for anything. So don't be discouraged.. They can lead a pretty normal life. Maybe not as long as some. I retired him after he got his Sch 1. In his heart he is a Sch 3 dog.. I have kept him lean most of his life, which proved hard after I altered him. I dont give him anything but Rymadel once every day or so. He still runs out and meets me at the gate. And when he isnt happy anymore or can't come out to the gate, I will know its time. I have owned a lot of dogs and he is the best I have ever had. I know it wont be long now but he has been worth it. Good luck.

Hi all, X-raying elbows may be a new idea in some countries but Australian breeders have been doing it for over 12 years. A "Z" stamp has been a mandatory requirement for Breed Survey for ages. This was done in response to the problems with elbows that we saw in dogs imported from Germany or their progeny. Believe me, X-raying your stock and breeding with caution those dogs with a score, will, over time, dramatically reduce the incidence of elbow dysplasia (of all types - there are at least 3 to be concerned about, UAP being the worst since it causes lameness and pain at a very young age). Keeping good statistics on what the sires are producing will also go a long way to help you. Some sires are clear elbow improvers and some are very much not, just like with hips. Full knowledge is what you need. And in my case, I would breed my bitch with a (Australian) score of 1 to a sire with a (Australian) score of 1, so long as the virtues of the mating outweighed the elbows. I would not use a sire with a score of 2 unless to a clear bitch with a clear family history. It's just another thing to have to consider and weigh up when chosing a mate for your bitch. Regards, Kim

WiscTiger, it is unlikely your dog will ever have debilitating problems with his elbows even if not clean by OFA standards (which specify that any arthritic changes to the smooth surfaces of the elbow bones constitute one form or another of degenerative joint disease (DJD), in addition to the problem of un-united anconeal process (UAP) (which is quite debilitating and usually presents as swelling and limping). If your dog does not have UAP and it seems certain that he doesn't from your description, then your dog will probably live out a full life with no discernable elbow problems at all (as long as you keep him trim, fit and feed him well). Your dog's issue is only a problem if you desire to breed him. Unfortunately studies indicate that it is a bad idea to breed to any dog with "unclean elbows", that is, elbows that don't certify normal OFA or "normal" under the SV system. Unclean elbows, even if only slightly tainted produce much more than their fair share of serious elbow problems in their offspring. The OFA website has a good research article on this. I believ that the reason it has taken the SV so long to "face the music" and attend to the reality of elbow problems and their heritability is the same reason that it took so long for them for face hip degeneracy issues and their heritability. Fully facing up to such a serious issue has extensive ramifications for breeding selections, value of stud dogs and brood bitches, and their offspring which become tainted with this heritable problem. This subject is so difficult to face and deal with that it usually has to be done in barely palatable phases, just as it did with hips. The first stage of reality is using the three class classification (normal, fast normal and noch zugelesen). Once the approptriate research is fully digested I predict that the SV will eventually scrap this system and adopt the OFA perspective. If they don't eventually, few will breed to fast and noch elbowed dogs. I think right now there is a trend in germany to breed more and more to "a normal" hipped dogs as a means of decreasing disabling hip dysplasia. Breeding to a dog with unclean ("non-normal") elbows creates much more problems in the offspring than for hips (the current SV hip classification system is workable as is). I believ it is unwise to breed any animal with noch hips and fast normal or noch elbows. Breeding a GSD with fast normal hips is certainly okay if the animal is exceptional as a producer, has a good hip record in its progeny and good pedigree depth for a high percentage of good hips. The same cannot be said for any dog with unclean elbows (i.e. fast normal or noch) in my view based on the research I have read and studied.

WiscTiger, the quality of a finished x-ray can have some effect on the findings. Apart from proper positioning, if there is a problem with the film development process (dirty silver solution, maladjusted rollers) there can be poor image sharpness as well as haze and specks than can appear to be minor arthritic changes. In my opinion, the quality of the developed x-ray can have some bearing, if but minor, on the final diagnosis of the joint quality. JustK9S, I think that you set the good example for proper dog stewardship and it is proven by the longevity of your dog. I guess that my burning question is the true elbow quality of the S.V.'s "a" Normal classification. If it follows the same scheme as the same classification for hips, then the elbow can be of a quality that varies from excellent to one with minor irregularities. O.F.A. Grade I dysplasie (the very minor deformity) is never expected to become worse as a dog ages. Is Grade I as much of an environmental as it could be a genetic one? I don't know. With Grades II and III I can understand genetic factors at work as the joint is not of normal construction. According to the experts, the elbow joint is much more difficult to examine because of its complexity, therefore it is scrutinized much deeper than a hip joint. I'll take their word for it, as I cannot read an elbow x-ray with any degree of certainty as I can a hip x-ray. At least the S.V. has finally admitted to a problem with the inheritance of poor elbows. I guess that my only questions deal with the comparison of their classifications with those of the O.F.A., who has no system of classification for normal elbows, just a pass or fail with an explanation of the results that caused the dog to fail. Bob-O

Preston, as much as I love the big guy I will not be breeding him. He has the most solid temperment that I have seen in a long time. But you can't have a dog without a working body and you can't have a dog without a working brain, you just have to have both. OFA has three grades of DJD, 1 - 3. So he is a Grade II DJD, no UAP. I will always keep him on the lean side with a quality kibble and love him until he is ready to go. There always seems to be a post going on about Hips, I just wanted to start one for Elbows. I know there are some people who aren't really on board about Grading and Certifing Elbows but I think it is a good thing.

WiscTiger, in my view as long as you don't use your dog for breeding, his elbows are not an issue or a problem, especially with the great care you provide for him. Without the Xray screening you would never have known his elbows weren't perfect. Because great temperament is not a given even in Sch trained dogs, and you know the value of the great temperament your dog has, if you ever need another GSD you will probably want to see if you can acquire one of very similar breeding to what your dog is. It is unlikely that you could ever be satisfied with less than the temperament your dog has. Once you've reached the summit, it's hard to ever settle for less.

My husbands male, was OFA Good hips and a Grade1 elbow at 2 years or so.....we have also always kept him lean, he is 26" and weighs around 77lbs or so.....and used Glucosamine, Chondroitin and MSM supplements in addition chiropractic and acupuncture.My husband does agility, in 2002 he was the #1 GSD in AKC agility, he was in the top 3 for 5 years..He was 2004 GSDCA Agility Victor at 7 1/2 years, he is 9 years old now and still running agility, although much slower but they are trying to finish a MACH4 on him, he will be the only GSD to ever earn it if he can make it ... he has spondylosis and I'm afraid the arthritis from that will stop him before they reach their goals.. He had pano very badly thru his young life....he was bred once to a male owned by a woman who was persistent and had a line of dogs she had been breeding for years so she was very confident in her elbows and he was the only one of our dogs in a long line of relatives to not have clear elbows... so we tried it... 3 offspring with clear joints, not sure if anyone will ever breed the son... the other 2 are spayed.... but they are all very bright and their titles earned him the #2 sire GSDCA Annual Training Achievement Award... we redid his elbow a while back and our vet believes it degraded to a 2, so we have turned away a couple of people still interested in him.... just too risky.. But I think it's evident that they can live healthy active lives..... good luck to you ..

DKiah, congratulations for your dog's (and your and your husband's) achievements. At his age, even if he had clear elbows there would probably be some issue somewhere with arthritis. I think that it is one of those unavoidable issues if the dog lives a full life. I really like the thread here, as no one gave up on their dog because of this issue. All of you guys have allowed your dog to work and have and still are enjoying him-that is what it is all about. So many of us forget that even a dog who we feel should not be bred is still an animal who's companionship we should enjoy. Bob-O

Great thread, thanks to everyone that has posted. Barb Dante 2 year old GSD Grade I-DJD