Schutzhund -confusing reaction - Page 1

Ok, as I get ready with final training for the Sch1.
In everyone's opinion what is the minium reaction for the gun sensitivity test that the judge will be watching for. Like is the dog allowed to look back or look in certain direction??

I noticed when my dog hears the gun last year he is starting to get pumped like reaction to protection work, eyes dilate, and he is breathing heavy. I noticed that afterwards when I whip out tug in OB after gun. He about drags me down to the ground. Should I work the gun in more to get him more used to it.
Just worried he will do something he shouldn't.
I noticed some judges do it soon after not so many paces, or is this in Sch3?
Thanks
Michele

Michele,

I ran into this very problem with my girl last year and in the exact same way.  She heard the gun and immediately she got on her toes, looking for the helper with the "whip".

She broke both the down and also reacted when fussing beside me and I lost points on the exercise.  Luckily I was not dismissed because the judge saw her as 'gun aggressive' rather than 'gun shy' but I still ended up failing OB that trial day.

I took her home and worked her all year up and down the field with gun shots.

I never rewarded her after the gun shots or anything to give her the idea that they meant anything and when I also asked my helper to cut back on the whip work in the weeks leading up to our trial a couple weeks ago.

When we trialed she didn't break the down this time and though she flicked her ears and *I* could see her eyes roll back when the gun was fired, she didn't jump or start looking around for the 'threat' this time and we passed.

I still wouldn't say the problem is 'fixed' and I'll need to keep working with her for our next trial, hopefully get it into her head that the gun is not the fun and games of the whip. :/

Michele,
Ideally, the dog should have a neutral reaction to the gunfire.  If the dog looks towards the gunfire but remains calm and in control you won't have a problem.  What the judges don't want to see is a skittish, nervous or fearful reaction.  

I would condition the dog to the gunfire, by introducing the gunfire form a distance and gradually moving closer.  I would continue doing my obedience normally and reward when you normally would, ignoring the gunfire.  If you notice an adverse reaction increase the distance and keep working.  

Many dogs get amped and aggressive during the gunfire exercise.  It is also a problem if the dog gets too amped and seems out of control.  This is where your obedience kicks in and keeps him under control.  An aggressive reaction is far better, IMO than a fearful or skittish reaction.  It is easier to correct an aggressive reaction. 

We do  a lot of work with the Police K9's to ensure they are somewhat gunfire neutral.  What we do with the Police K9's is very different than the SchH dogs.  We will fire guns while heeling and have multiple officers firing and a bad guy in a suit firing as well.  We have to insure that the dog will target the decoy or bad guy and not an officer simply because the officer is firing.   During the whole exercise our dogs are expected to remain calm and under control until they are sent.

Jim

okay one more thing
I know if he breaks long down he is failed. Dog can't move more than 3 meters.
I just know he may look back opposite of my leg. But, I don't know if he is confusing this with bitework.
Now I am wondering. About the long down.lol

Like can I put him in the long down and have someone do shots in the distance then feed him if he goes to get up.?? Or like RLHAR said do not make gunshots a big deal. I am just trying to think of any exercise to give her positive reinforcements in. Or if anyone has done this for a dog that has broken the long down in gun test.?
He has never really been in the long down while shots went off. Ummm.
I know, I am worry wart. Just don't want to be embarrassed or anything. Just noticed him getting hyped at gun shots more lately

 Find a gun club or hunting club in your area. Go there with your dog while they are shooting and just walk you dog around for a while. Soon the gunfire will mean nothing to him/her.  Best if you can find a rifle range or a club that practices trap/skeet shooting.

Michele,

Jim brought up a lot of good thoughts and suggestions.

I personally associate a food reward as a 'calming' reward.  I use it when I work on position and precision.  The ball/toy/tug is for drive and power in the exercise so from that standpoint I think a food reward would be a good thing, since it's not exciting drive.

I just don't want to give my girl anything that would in anyway reward her for being 'high' and drive her even higher.

If that makes sense?

Jim,
You are a great source of information all the time.This is why love this database - people like Jim or Hans share their knowledge and experience.
I will try this at my next training with my mali Afra,she is also too eager to "go and take down" the person who is shooting while in down.When doing heeling she does not care about shooting at all but when in down I always have to "hypnotize" her.
Marcela

Yap, advise with brains and experience included. The ability to explain things clearly. Gsdfan does the same thing.

Some people have the gift to know how to explain things! Thanks for that!

Interesting about "gun aggressive", because I had a dog that would bark and chase at thunder! He wanted to get that thunder in the worst way. Sounds to me like it is a similar reaction. I'm pretty sure I'd rather have a dog that is gun aggressive, than gun shy.

good advice.... but not the total concept !! your dog may NOT be gun aggressive !!!  this can occur with any sound or visual cue...  some dogs , especially those that drool to do bite work  have in mind that the sound , equal to your "attack / fass" command  any verbal , nonverbal /  are of the same .... . the gun fire in and of itself becomes the cue for the dog to bite the sleeve or attack .. SO .. this behavior has not always to do with temperament or character but a function of  'WHAT YOU HAVE TAUGHT' . The advice posted here is very very good. . Esentailly posters are telling you to  : CHANGE THE OUTLOOK OF THE DOG AS TO WHAT A 'GUN SHOT ' MEANS OR FROM NOW ON  more so what a gun shot will not mean  . the basic premise .. if the motivation or goal /reward of the dog is extinguished / absent .. then so will the resultant behavior. this becomes ' dog , the gun shot is no longer a cue to do bite work and is irrelevent. no different than a dog ignoring a bus going by. the noise is irrelevent. NOW .. yory down .. IMO taught incorrectly from the begining / and incorrect  training[ including proofing]. ... My personal take " i teach [ preferably form 10 weeks] there is no thought ever entering the dog's mind  of leaving a down ..the dog never aquires a reason to leave nor if it does by accident a reward / goal achieved. just the opposite ..it is taught that remaining down brings it to it's goals/ needs / rewards..  a down is a down[ abssolute ]!!.  i make sure the dog's outlook is to not have the need to come out of a down ... later in the proofing ... whether it be a helper agitating 1 foot awayand THREATENING . a gun shot , a passerby  * Down * ... that is it ..down is down !! So .. again dogs do not "unlearn behaviors!!!" BUT you can  teach  a new behavior [ platz]. teach exactly what you want from a new begining , start by using a different word [ no longer use down if you do ] , one inch from the dog. [ a Sch club can help you with successive approximation if you are not familiar with it] ..[ PS . i start with distractions right away but this may be to advanced for you unless you work with someone experienced]. good luck  -    AP