This is a placeholder text
Group text
by Phil Behun on 07 July 2010 - 00:07
Please keep up with tour group, I don't care who placed 1st or 10th. THE PROBLEM WAS A DISPLAY OF OUTWARD AGGRESSION ON MORE THAT ONE OCCASION TO BOTH DOGS AND PEOPLE. In the past dogs have been dismissed for either or both. Why was this overlooked by the judges and the National Breed Warden?
by GSDSRULE on 07 July 2010 - 00:07
No, I don't breed either. I just love animals. Certain breeds in particular. GSD's, Poms, Japanese Bobtail Cats and TWH's.
We had Pit Bulls years ago, but am no longer up for the challange and the fight for house insurance.
We had Pit Bulls years ago, but am no longer up for the challange and the fight for house insurance.
by Phil Behun on 07 July 2010 - 07:07
Ironically, when I received my July/August issue of the "For German Shepherds Only" magazine today, I happened to notice on page 83 under the Cedar Hill Working Dog Club trial results a dog (go figure, it's a Malinois) that was dismissed for handler aggression. Handler aggression???? Really? At a club trial? A CLUB TRIAL??? Don't these rules apply during a conformation event? A national event? Or is it just the Johannes rules coming into play? I follow my own rules and I make them up as I go!!! Wake up people,,,it's your organization, take it back. How can you tolerate a handful of egotists controlling you and your sport and destroying your breed? Don't you want to fight back?
by judron55 on 07 July 2010 - 10:07
How can you tolerate a handful of egotists controlling you and your sport and destroying your breed? Don't you want to fight back?
Phil....again, destroying the breed....obviously, you have an agenda....what handful are destroying the breed? You're delusional at best!
by Bob McKown on 07 July 2010 - 11:07
It,s a sieger show?. Thats why they call it a show and not a trial. The actors are in place(show dogs) the props are all there(ball,whistles,double handlers air horns ect...) and the ring master(judges) all you need is a kaliapee tooting in the back ground and you got a real show.
1 person or a group of people can,t ruin a breed it takes a concerted effort and as long as breeders breed to a working standard all the sieger shows in the world won,t hurt the breed.
If you don,t like a certain judge don,t show under him or her and eventually they will be requested less and less for judging. I don,t have a issue trialing under Johannes.
by Dog1 on 07 July 2010 - 13:07
Phil has a point. He may be a little over zealous, but think a little about what's happening. Is USA destroying the breed? I don't think we can say that and yes it does take a group to make a significant change. Changing the breed? Yes, USA has voted as a group to at least indirectly change the breed.
How is this?
First I'll try to illustrate a point. There are 10 women in a beauty contest; 5 are blond and 5 brunette. One judge likes blonds and puts all the blonds in front. In subsequent years blonds do better under this judge so the group of people that want to compete under this judge strive to produce the type of person that does well under this judge. The brunettes are equally as beautiful as the blonds and all of them are placed higher at the next contest. This judge obviously prefers a different type of woman even though they are all top specimens. The group that likes this judge strive to produce women that appeal to this judge and the brunettes naturally gravitate to him.
Sounds simple. What does this have to do with USA and the JA?
The JA is divisional by nature. It accomplishes nothing other than to separate the GSD enthusiasts in the US into different groups. It has and will succeed at doing this. As these groups develop the dogs produced by the groups will differ. Thus a split in the breed will most likely occur. How much and to what degree remains to be seen but write this on your calendar. The elements to split the GSD breed in the US have been placed in effect.
Will one be better than the other? Who knows? Look at the evolution of USA. I'll use the sieger show as an example as it is the breed event. I know it's mostly a conformation event, but the GSD is bred with a variety of criteria taken into consideration and the criteria is considered at the sieger show. When was the last time a trial was decided by hip ratings? See,,,it's a breed show. Yes the working line dogs can compete and be judged for their breed worthiness and some are. This is not a show/work discussion, it's a race discussion. Please don't pollute the thread by twisting things.
Back to the evolution,,, 10 years ago, SV judges judging all classes at the sieger show. Then USA judges were implemented into the program to the extent they now judge the males. The males set the direction of the breed. In USA we now have one person in charge of the breed. No check and balance. No results from shows and offspring across the country to guide the direction. Just a dog on a day event. This is in total contrast to Germany where SV judges gather information, are knowledgeable of the bloodlines and what they produce as well as current trends are all taken into consideration. Is one better than the other? Not saying it is or it isn't there are arguments on both sides. For the sake of this discussion let's agree they are just different. One may like blonds, one may like brunets.
So how will we know if there is a difference and the split is occurring?
Easy. In the past the USA sieger Show and NASS had similar entries and the dogs from show to show made similar placings. There was consistency in the breed in this country. If the dogs from the USA sieger show go to the NASS and all form the VA group, Woohoo we have no problem, there is no split. The breed is safe and we can all go about our business and sleep comfortably. However if there's a different group of dogs in the VA ranks, you have a split. What happens after the split? Where would you show your dog next year? With the organization where it went VA or V? See what I mean? What happens when the offspring are shown? Since one kennels dogs are from one type of male, shown at one organizations shows, it only stands to reason the offspring would be preferred at those shows. Better? Not necessarily, but different.
How can this be? Do we have examples?
How is this?
First I'll try to illustrate a point. There are 10 women in a beauty contest; 5 are blond and 5 brunette. One judge likes blonds and puts all the blonds in front. In subsequent years blonds do better under this judge so the group of people that want to compete under this judge strive to produce the type of person that does well under this judge. The brunettes are equally as beautiful as the blonds and all of them are placed higher at the next contest. This judge obviously prefers a different type of woman even though they are all top specimens. The group that likes this judge strive to produce women that appeal to this judge and the brunettes naturally gravitate to him.
Sounds simple. What does this have to do with USA and the JA?
The JA is divisional by nature. It accomplishes nothing other than to separate the GSD enthusiasts in the US into different groups. It has and will succeed at doing this. As these groups develop the dogs produced by the groups will differ. Thus a split in the breed will most likely occur. How much and to what degree remains to be seen but write this on your calendar. The elements to split the GSD breed in the US have been placed in effect.
Will one be better than the other? Who knows? Look at the evolution of USA. I'll use the sieger show as an example as it is the breed event. I know it's mostly a conformation event, but the GSD is bred with a variety of criteria taken into consideration and the criteria is considered at the sieger show. When was the last time a trial was decided by hip ratings? See,,,it's a breed show. Yes the working line dogs can compete and be judged for their breed worthiness and some are. This is not a show/work discussion, it's a race discussion. Please don't pollute the thread by twisting things.
Back to the evolution,,, 10 years ago, SV judges judging all classes at the sieger show. Then USA judges were implemented into the program to the extent they now judge the males. The males set the direction of the breed. In USA we now have one person in charge of the breed. No check and balance. No results from shows and offspring across the country to guide the direction. Just a dog on a day event. This is in total contrast to Germany where SV judges gather information, are knowledgeable of the bloodlines and what they produce as well as current trends are all taken into consideration. Is one better than the other? Not saying it is or it isn't there are arguments on both sides. For the sake of this discussion let's agree they are just different. One may like blonds, one may like brunets.
So how will we know if there is a difference and the split is occurring?
Easy. In the past the USA sieger Show and NASS had similar entries and the dogs from show to show made similar placings. There was consistency in the breed in this country. If the dogs from the USA sieger show go to the NASS and all form the VA group, Woohoo we have no problem, there is no split. The breed is safe and we can all go about our business and sleep comfortably. However if there's a different group of dogs in the VA ranks, you have a split. What happens after the split? Where would you show your dog next year? With the organization where it went VA or V? See what I mean? What happens when the offspring are shown? Since one kennels dogs are from one type of male, shown at one organizations shows, it only stands to reason the offspring would be preferred at those shows. Better? Not necessarily, but different.
How can this be? Do we have examples?
by Dog1 on 07 July 2010 - 13:07
Check this out. USA sieger show. All top dogs are excellent animals deserving of their placings. No one argues that. The dogs that were placed high in Germany at the world level were placed behind dogs that have never been shown at the world level. Different judging criteria? You tell me.
To further complicate matters, the JA has split the country geographically, East vs. West. Take a look at the WDA board of directors and who didn't attend the US show this year. All East Coast kennels. If USA had a sieger show in the East, who would participate? The majority of the East Coast is WDA. It's the East Coast's turn next year for the USA sieger show. Let's see where they have it.
So we have to ask what affect does the JA have on the breed? Let's see. It's taken the sparse resources of the GSD community within the US and divided them. Now the already tough inconsistent rules become more complicated and complex. Does anyone really know what it takes to enter an event? The answer is; no. Will we breed the same type of FCI dog? Maybe. Are there enough resources in the US to support two organizations where there are no common members? We will see. Which one will emerge if only one can survive? Just look for the club that shows the first sign of business trouble. Layoffs, raising prices are their market share decreases, offering less services, etc., typical cutbacks businesses that are no longer as profitable experience. Time will tell.
by judron55 on 07 July 2010 - 13:07
the GS community in the US is divided as the GS community in Europe is divided....it has nothing to do with the JA amendment! If the amendment wasn't passed the community would still be divided! Look at other breeds....they are just as divided because people interpret standards differently. So what...!
by Bob McKown on 07 July 2010 - 13:07
You know that I heard it is the fault of the J.A. that there is oil on gulf state beach,s ...must be a conspiracy.
by zdog on 07 July 2010 - 13:07
oh, I don't know that it didn't do anything to further the divide. I was a dual member, a helper in both org's, trained with people in both, most were dual members as well. Now I"m not, and I hear more complaining and talk about "who's" right and which organization is the worst and less about training and breeding better dogs. Each one thinking they're better than the other.
WDA has it's problems and I sure haven't seen anyting out of USA that has shown me it's any better. SOme more working trials, but again the ones i've been at, the quality of dogs between the two in the trials has been pretty equal. But as far as maintaining a standard? or adhereing to the rules? or corruption, or underhandedness? Please, it's as bad as it gets.
I think lots of people just pay lots of lip service. I'd gladly pay memberships to both again, trail at whatever trial was closest or fit my schedule the best, and be available to help whatever person wanted or needed it for a trial, regardless of WDA or USA. I think that would be great. One score book, recognized at all trials would be nice too.
WDA has it's problems and I sure haven't seen anyting out of USA that has shown me it's any better. SOme more working trials, but again the ones i've been at, the quality of dogs between the two in the trials has been pretty equal. But as far as maintaining a standard? or adhereing to the rules? or corruption, or underhandedness? Please, it's as bad as it gets.
I think lots of people just pay lots of lip service. I'd gladly pay memberships to both again, trail at whatever trial was closest or fit my schedule the best, and be available to help whatever person wanted or needed it for a trial, regardless of WDA or USA. I think that would be great. One score book, recognized at all trials would be nice too.
Contact information Disclaimer Privacy Statement Copyright Information Terms of Service Cookie policy ↑ Back to top
