Ursus Batu, Yasko Farbenspiel, Larus Batu - Page 1

Staring yr2000 to yr2005 Grand father, father , son are the VA1 with the exception of Bax. Do the judges want to say that this is the blood that needs to be stagnated and saturated. Given that these dogs are used so extensively dont you think that other bloodlines like Hill farbenspiel, Quantum Arminius, Timo Berrekasten (which are no less than the Ursus clan) should have been given a better deal so that the GSD world ovr had a wider gene pool to breed from. I do accept the fact that Ursus, Yasko, Larus are eligible for VA1 rankings but Hill, Timo, Quantum are no less. NO HARD FEELINGS PLEASE

Alex, I don't know what the SV is thinking in promoting one line so strongl.I do know that people much more knowledgable about the GSD than me strongly believe that Larus should never have been VA1.It has been said many times,the overall quality of Larus's progeny is not up to the standard expected of a Seiger. It has been said that if the Seiger award was given on progeny alone, Quantum would have won last year easily. I think out of all of these dogs Timo is the real star.A top quality dog with unfashionable bloodlines, a colour not like by many influential breeders & didn't get many top quality bitches but now his children & g/children are producing good quality shepherds. Rod.

Talking VA-dogs is talking big business. Question is: Who pulls the strings here? Let me insert some more info on the Elite. (I hope the query shows properly) At the SV-Bundessiegerzuchtschau 2004 in Karlsruhe, three out of four first places were taken by progeny of Yasko and Ursus: VA1 Larus, VA3 Erasmus and VA4 Orbit. Ghandi as a son of Ursus became VA8. One could not define this as a broad bloodbasis for the breed, but let me elaborate on that. Let's have a look at the Top of last years Bundessiegerzuchtschau in Ulm and admire the „broader Basis”, the Top 20: SV-Bundessiegerzuchtschau Ulm 2005 - Gebrauchshundeklasse RÜDEN Platz BSZ + Rüden HD Blutführung 1 VA 1 Larus von Batu 2 Yasko-Ursus => Jeck 2 VA 2 Quantum von Arminius 2 Dux-Max => Jeck 3 VA 3 Erasmus van Noort 2 Yasko-Ursus => Jeck 4 VA 4 Pakros d' Ulmental 1 Bax-Odin => Zamb 5 VA 5 Zamp vom Thermodos 1 Quantum-Dux => Jeck 6 VA 6 Dux de Cuatro Flores 2 Hill-Huppy => Cello 7 VA 7 Marko della Valcuvia 1 Dux-Max => Jeck 8 VA 8 Quenn vom Löher Weg 1 Uran-Ursus => Jeck 9 VA 9 Nando vom Gollerweiher 2 Yello-Enzo => Mark 10 V 1 Karat's Yoker 6 Ursus-Hobby => Jeck 11 V 2 Ken vom Elzmündungsraum 1 Solo-Ursus => Jeck 12 V 3 Bravos vom Steffen Haus 1 Hoss-Cello 13 V 4 Janos von der Noriswand 1 Yasko-Ursus => Jeck 14 V 5 Lauser vom Emkendorfer 1 Wallace-Scott => Jeck 15 V 6 Yimmy v. Contra 2 Larus-Yasko-Ursus => Jeck 16 V 7 Timo von der Jahnhöhe 1 Wallace-Scott => Jeck 17 V 8 Mark vom Schwalmbergtal 1 Henry-Esko => Zamb 18 V 9 Dux von Jabora 1 Maffay-Esko => Zamb 19 V 10 Flipp von Arlett 1 Ghandi-Ursus => Jeck 20 V 11 Xaro d' Ulmental 1 Whisky-Ursus => Jeck (Data Nachkommen: SV-Genetics vom 3. Quartal 2005)

Almost half (9) of the first 20 places come over Sieger 2000 Ursus von Batu! Moreover, 5 other dogs: 3 via Dux-Max, 2 via Wallace-Scott, come over his grandfather: Sieger 1993 Jeck vom Noricum. 3 More dogs come via Bax-Odin, Henry-Esko und Maffay-Esko over Sieger 1992 Zamb von der Wienerau. In total: 17 out of the first 20 dogs descend, in only few generations, from only one ancestor: VA6 1988 Odin von der Tannenmeise (14 x via Jeck, 3 x via Zamb). Is this a broad basis of blood? I don't think so! Only three dogs come "broader". Dux de Cuatro Flores and Bravos vom Steffen Haus go back to Cello von der Römerau (=> VA12 Jupp von der Haller Farm), and Nando vom Gollerweiher comes over VA4 Mark vom Haus Beck. There definately is a broad pool of blood with the GSD, I'm quite convinced of that. But it's not being used. Or rather, it's not being "honoured". At least not by the Judges. One could promote this vast pool of blood, by attracting other bloodlines into the VA-group. (It's a fact that the "Auslesehunde" are the most asked for studs.) Calling for representatives of the other bloodlines into the VA-group would enforce this idea. As far as I know, the Headjudge of the Siegerschau even has a mandate to do this. Mister Erich Orschler did put this subject on his "to-do" list for the SV-Bundessieger-Zuchtschau 2004: Quote: „Für das Richten der Gebrauchshundeklasse Rüden hatte ich mir folgende Ziele gesetzt: 1. Erhaltung der Blutlinien 2. Verbreiterung des bisherigen Blutbasis 3. ... „ As mentioned above, in this year's VA-group of 9: we find 6 Jeck’s, and respectively 1 Zamb-, Cello- und Mark-descendant. Mr. Orschler thus succeeded in his topic 1, dramatically failed in subject number 2. But let's also have a look at the VA-dogs of several other years: 20 Out of 25 VA-dogs from the shows 2001-2005 (in very few generations) go back to Quanto von der Wienerau (14 over Jeck, 3 over Zamb, 2 over Uran and 1 over Quando. Only 3 VA-dogs out of these 25 descend from Mark von Haus Beck, and 2 from Cello von der Römerau (Jupp von der Haller Farm). Doesn't look like a welldone job for the judges. I'm convinced of the fact one should only allow 1 or 2 representatives of the same bloodline into the VA-group. There are most definately sufficient alternatives and there is even hifi-material to broaden the basis. The opportunity however is not taken, and that is pitiful. Even when a lot of dogs have achieved a high ranking, the „Vorzüglich“ is not enough, to enforce the development of a bloodline.

Jantie You have made the point more clear. I appreciate your research Great Work!!! No wonder the GSD today has so many inherent genetic problems. What else can you expect when such a small gene pool is promoted?? As Traveller said Quantum or Timo are better options

You know, I don't know if the SV is "promoting" one dog or the other. I do know, the breeders are certainly knocking down the doors to keep up with what is, "the latest and greatest" on the VA stands. If more breeders were a little "original" in their litter planning, as opposed to grasping at the latest "VA straw" there would certainly be more diversity among the breed. Stephen

You certainly have a good point there Stephen. But the counter measure is definately (solely?) in the hands of the Judge(s) on the BSZS. He is the one who pulls the strings, who "controls" the business for the years to come. He could easily call upon dogs of ten different bloodlines to go into the final group of VA-dogs (look at the huge amount of dogs being presented). IF!! he would take his mandate serious. IF he would open his eyes. "Diversity" is in the hands of the judges, they can steer in the right direction. How poorly this job is/was being executed was proven (again) impressively when Larus made his first Sieger 2004. Note that he was a deserved Sieger last year! No question about that. But a judge with balls would never have allowed Larus to be called VA-1 in 2004 without progeny. Imagine Vegas du Haut Mansard becoming Sieger 2006!? As incredible right? Looks exactly the same to me. 9 Out of 20 listed dogs in above listing come over Ursus von Batu. Question! "Who was the judge that needed to diversify and call upon different bloodlines in 2004?" Answer! "Erich Orschler." Question! "Did he care about diversifying the bloodlines?" Answer! "He couldn't care less."

Agreed to what is being said in this forum previously, but could anyone suggest me what other line would have been promoted to bring a change. If we see the present day GSD 60-70 percent of the decent dogs have Ursus blood in them and undoubted with great temperament.

Hill Line is also promoted over the years let it not be the sieger but still to the top place, but we have not seen any significant improvement from the same line.

Quantum on the other hand himself gave some good progeny like Zamp etc, but then what do we have after them I guess nothing exceptional they have carried forward the legacy or the anatomy  Zamp posses, rather he himself is not the best with the temperament and the same can be seen in the progeny as well.

Considering these things i think it was the wisest decision to promote the Ursus blood so that whenever combined with any other bloodline it actually sustains the Strength and Substantiality and the character of a GSD.

The judges have made Pakros also a sieger where as the contribution from him was not very significant other then Vegas who looks like will prove his worth and some move top females but very few. So if compared with the generation we have
bax> Pakros>Vegas but un doubtly  i dont think they can contribute as did the Ursus > Yasko > Progeny Blood or for that matter  ursus > progeny blood.

It is more over combination of the Female bloodline which also clicks with the qualities of the legendry Male.

Agreed to what is being said in this forum previously, but could anyone suggest me what other line would have been promoted to bring a change. If we see the present day GSD 60-70 percent of the decent dogs have Ursus blood in them and undoubted with great temperament.

Hill Line is also promoted over the years let it not be the sieger but still to the top place, but we have not seen any significant improvement from the same line.

Quantum on the other hand himself gave some good progeny like Zamp etc, but then what do we have after them I guess nothing exceptional they have carried forward the legacy or the anatomy  Zamp posses, rather he himself is not the best with the temperament and the same can be seen in the progeny as well.

Considering these things i think it was the wisest decision to promote the Ursus blood so that whenever combined with any other bloodline it actually sustains the Strength and Substantiality and the character of a GSD.

The judges have made Pakros also a sieger where as the contribution from him was not very significant other then Vegas who looks like will prove his worth and some move top females but very few. So if compared with the generation we have
bax> Pakros>Vegas but un doubtly  i dont think they can contribute as did the Ursus > Yasko > Progeny Blood or for that matter  ursus > progeny blood.

It is more over combination of the Female bloodline which also clicks with the qualities of the legendry Male.
Regards,

Jayesh

There is no difference in this breeding and the American breeding on Lance of Franjo, and then Sundance. Same formula and the result is travelling down the same path. How people can come on this forum and DEFEND these breeding practices with a straight face is beyond me. Since they can't deny what is apparent to every body in terms of the denigration of the GS as a working dog because of breeding practices, they resort to the cliche of "Well there are problems with the working lines to", or "showlines can work they just aren't trained enough", or "the focus of showlines doesn't promote extensive training or they could do it too", or "they both have problems so we should combine them and everybody get along";  Hogwash!, B--ls--t!, STOP IT!!  These dogs are so genetically screwed up with inbreeding/linebreed so deeply at this point that no one wants to breed into these lines because the concentration of negative recessives(health and temperament) are so strong that it will take generations to dilute these elements back out of your line. Yes, every dog has faults and all lines have "normal" recssives crop up from time to time, but these top showlines as shown by the "FACTS" above will end up self destructing as a noble working dog if its not already the case. And you know what is more sickening; is people coming on trying to rationalize the current shape of the showlines.  To me this reflects either blindness or incredible lack of integrity for maintaining this great breed. Regardless, I have no respect for these breeders or their creation. People wake up and stand up for the Breed!!