Genetics or training - Page 1

Yes!

It all adds up, but I would place a much higher value on the genetics.  Oftentimes, the right genetics are prerequisite to what the training demands.  Good genetics can make a fine animal in spite of poor training or lack thereof.

Agree

I have had the opportunity to raise a couple litters from birth to old age. I tend to keep my litters, I place only a few here and there as I breed for myself.

NO ONE can tell me "it's all how you raise them"! : )  When you raise a litter and expose them to ALL the same things, and raise them the same, and train them the same, and they show SUCH differences in drive and character from about 6 weeks on - well, how else can you account for it?

I raised one litter (American pit bulls) from birth to present (they are now 11 years old) and in that litter there were dogs which would lie down and never hit a lick if attacked up to dogs which would suck the paint off another dog from 5 yards away... all raised the same.  Genetics.

I think the most commonly misunderstood thing in dogs today is shyness: shyness is very very inherited.  Sure, some dogs get really traumatized by something and can become skittish, but BY FAR most of the shyness we see today is GENETIC.  All this crud about "socializing" is excuse making.  I have seen GSD pups born and raised in a shelter situation (rescue dogs) and turn out FANTASTIC and they were handled very, very little.  And then you have the show pups who are given the best of everything and taken here and there and they spook at everything.  Genetics.

If it was "all how you raise them"  then the Seeing Eye folks would have a FAR BETTER passing rate than they do.   And the fact that they have a poor passing rate even among dogs bred for generations proves that breeding great dogs is a TOUGH job! 

Thanks for bringing up an interesting subject.  

I think that view is commonly adopted by people who want to get by cheaply.  The justification helps them feel better about it.

I think that understanding the genetics and working with the inherited temperament plays a big part, a good dog means different things to different people and how you work with the temperament makes a big difference.  A strong dog worked with too much handler pressure and bad timing can be handler aggressive with rapidly diminishing tolerance, for example, but could be a great dog with a less overbearing, but more motivating handler.  Similarly, a high drive, handler sensitive dog can become a nervous wreck, full of doubts needing constant backup with the wrong type of handling or can be a highly biddable worker throwing itself wholeheartedly into whatever asked of it.

You need to honestly evaluate yourself before looking a dogs to evaluate.

Margaret N-J

I think that Kaffirdog has it the most correct.
I wrote, "Yes", because I think that both are important.
Everyone talks about genetics like it is a certain thing. Well, I do think that it means different things to different people.
I believe that all living things on a very basic level are genetically predisposed to certain things, but, that none are locked in to those predispositions.
Look at "genetics" in humans.
You could have a man, for example, like Albert Einstein and when it comes to science he has excellent genetics, but, put him on a battlefield as a soldier and he has poor genetics because he is a wimp.
The same could be said of the best soldier, he has excellent genetics for extreme physical activity, but, put him in the science lab and he is an idiot and has poor genetics for that. What both of those people have, hopefully, is very basic genetics that will allow them to adapt to other situations while not having to excel in all situations. Either one of those people could do better outside of their "environment" with better training. This is also true for dogs.
Some dogs "genetically" are good biters, some have a strong grip, some have both. Some, due to genetics, are faster runners than others. Some dogs are potty trained from the start, some it takes months. So what does "genetics" mean?
Daryl, you wrote that genetics can make make up for poor training. That is highly philosophical and not entirely correct. It depends on the situation.
Also, understanding genetic deficiencies (by this I do not mean poor genetics) and good training can make up for those genetic definciencies, again depending on the situation and what you want to do with the dog.
My opinion is that the most important thing is strong basic genetics that should produce sound temperament which should allow a dog to adapt to most, if not all, situations and handle them accordingly.