producing long hairs - Page 1

Here is a question ... If your female consistantly with different sires kept producing at least one long hair in every litter...would you continue to breed her?

yes

sure, why not. The first time the bitch produces a coated pup it just tells you that she is recessive for the trait. It also tells you that all sires used are recessive for the trait every time such litters produce coated pups. It is part of the shepherd breed. If you'd try to eliminate every possible or probably fault a dog might produce - you will have no dogs left to breed with... And this one is a purely "cosmetic" flaw, which just about every single shepherd has somewhere back in its lines, and even after generations of no coats you might one day end up with a throw back. On the other hand, two parents known to be recessive for the trait and who both have produced them before with different breeding partners, may not produce any coats at all with their particular combination. If that is the least of your worries in your breeding program, lucky you. This is a minor "flaw" that will in no way affect the pups health, well being or future. There are also many studs who are recessive for coats, popular VA and BSP dogs included. If that is the least of a breeders worries... The motivation to stop breeding would most likely be a financial one because coated pups in the US are sold for lesser priced pet pups. In Germany breeders of coated shepherds are well organized in their own registry and coated pups that are well bred are in quite a demand.

I have used 4 different Sires with one female resulting in 5 litters and only one litter was produced with zero long haired puppies. The Sire used in that breeding was V19 Ian Von Fidelius(HIGH drives in that bunch{9}). We're expecting a litter this weekend so the verdict is still out on the upcoming litter. There is always someone desiring a long haired dog so there is no problem placing them. But I could not imagine not producing some of the nice pups we have bred, just to avoid producing an occasional long hair, every now and then. Especially with this female, she is an excellent mother/teacher in all respects, and her progeny's temperaments and intelligence are the MOST. For people wanting a pet quality dog, they are excellent companions. I have had conversations with my German mentors regarding this issue, and they accept it as a fact of life. Having an occasional long hair is as common as breeding and whelping. It is a non-issue. Stephen

Having an occasional long hair is as common as breeding and whelping. It is a non-issue. That's exactly right. I second that. No problem getting a long-coat in a litter now and then - though the working-lines I think produce less "coaties" than the show-lines - they still pop up here and there. Sold as pets for lower price and no breeding rights. molly

I just had my first litter which included a couple long hairs. I agree with the others, no big deal, and it is said this recessive gene helps give the normal coated pups a nice thick stock coat. I will also add, to my surprise, I am quite charmed by these long hairs. One I had had a huge head, and the thickest bone, he will be gorgeous when he matures...I've had people beg me to call them if I ever got a long hair..now I know why! I would never ever breed one, or sell one with breeding rights, but after having this first experience with them, I can't say I would never have one for myself to work. Also, our state police department has quite a few in service! The only problem I have found with long hairs, is the different ways so many people use the different terms to describe the coat. For instance, many say "plush" to describe a thick stock coat, and other use that term to describe a long hair that isn't as long as most. Very confusing! And it seems the only way to get knowledge on figuring out if a pup is coated or not is by experience, as the net has little to offer as reference...especially when they don't have the "classic long hair" pup features...Mine seemed borderline almost...making me wonder if they were "plush" or "Long coated"...the only way to know for sure I suppose is "time will tell".

a true long-coat is very rare, does not have an undercoat, so the outer coat is silky, soft, "flowing", and parted down the back. Like a Setter's coat. Very thin, silky, no undercoat. The pups you and I have seen are not "true" long coats - they are long-stock coats. Normal undercoat, outercoat, but "extras" especially around ears, head, behind legs, pants, tail and overall very thick - not necessarily much longer in length. I personally call this "plush" - the same as long-stock coat. Long-stock coat used to be allowed for breed survey (now it is not allowed, but there are dogs "borderline" that sqeak through for sure) - long-coats have never been allowed for breed survey - I have personally never seen a true long-coat GSD. molly

Thanks!! Molly by your description, I think there is a true long coat on another board I have seen. On GSDwrold.net....she has long hair not puffy at all, flowing, and parted in the middle..she is beautiful. Thanks again for all of the responses...

I think it is easier for folks to understand if one attempts to use less "technical" language. If one refers, as example, "the coat factor". It is really very simple. For explanation purposes assume bred dogs are one of each sex--- simple? matters not which one is male or female--- 1 Breed coat factor to non-coat factor--- 50% puppies carry factor--- 50% do not--- NO coated puppies! 2 Breed coat factor to coat factor---- 25% puppies are coated--- (of remainder) 50% no coats, but carry the factor--- remaining 25% are not coated and do NOT carry the factor. One should have no problem agreeing with previous posters that it is "no big deal". One could go one step further, reasonably, I believe, that to not breed a "coat" is close to hypocritical, in that breeding the litter mates that may or may not carry the factor is ALWAYS OK! The "coat factor" will never, ever, go away. To pretend it doesn't exist is hypocritical! One should not have to explain that no coated puppies for a number of generations is NOT an indication of no coat factor--- It is merely an indication that both parents do not carry the factor. One caution!!!!! Genetic %ages are "across the board" and you could have a litter, theoretically, that defies either rule 1 or rule 2 above. Never a sure bet Morgan

eicheluft-- Agree completely with your "observations". I truly would not be surprised if, in fact, there was not a "true coat" in existance today. As I recall from my youth-- 1 long outer coat, no undercoat, 2 hair so thick IN their ears it would impair their hearing, 3 hair growth between the toes so thick as to splay their feet and actually cause lameness or crippling if it wasn't kept trimmed. I suspect perhaps, your comment about the numbers in "working", versus "show" could very well be true. I think that todays "show lines" trace more directly back (line breeding) to the days of one German Shepherd Dog. Some of the working lines were, perhaps, sort of developed as a "splinter breed", so to speak, and coincidentally some of those so chosen were, and I stress, coincidentally, free of the coat factor. There are, I am sure, still "blues" and "livers"---- It has been many years since I have heard any breeder admit to them. Obviously, I must add while I have many "coats" in my lines, I have NEVER produced either. Morgan