What DOES show quality mean anyway? - Page 1

Can you guys tell me what that phrase really means?

I am into working line dogs.   There is no way any breeder can guarantee any litter of pups or pup will be able to attain even a BH, let alone have the drives, biddabilty, grip,  etc.,  to be able to compete on the local, national or international level in schutzhund or any sport.  The breeder can say this litter was bred for top level sport, or the breeder can say at this stage of the game this pup  is demonstrating more drive than this pup, or is a real firecracker, but they can't guarantee which pup will or will not eventually pan out.  There are too many variables, both nature and nurture. 

So when a breeder advertises a litter of pups as show quality, aren't they saying the same thing basically, that this litter is bred so that most likely the pups will be show quality?  What is show quality anyway?  I would think it would be no disqualifing faults.  I mean what more can be expected?  Can they guarantee ring placements?  Can they even guarantee you wouldn't be laughed out of the ring?

I guess my point is I don't know anyone who buys a particular pup because the breeder said it was "top level sport quality" or "show quality" and then when it doesn't happen can seriously expect to go back to the breeder and say "I want my money back because you said........"

Actually, there are several Threads that have been posted regarding your question.   One you may find interesting is "Show Quality" - April 9, 2009

I am aware the question has been asked before, has nothing to do with my asking it now.  Do you have an opinion on what a breeder means by show quality? 

It  indicates that an animal is worthy of being shown in a Conformation ring. Breeders rarely use this term in conjunction with a young puppy.

Show Prospect indicate that a young puppy shows potential to be shown in a conformation ring.


How does one go about finding a show quality animal?

Responsible breeders as a rule do not advertise show quality animals  They do not need to do so because they already have show homes for the puppies or are keeping the show prospects for themselves.

BEWARE...responsible breeders do not advertise "breeding stock" for sale. Not all show breeders are created equal. Some breeders may brag about the number of finished Champions they have bred over the years. Do not take this to automatically infer that these breeders are necessarily responsible. Other breeders may advertise "show prospects" or "show quality" animals but do not show themselves... RUN the other way!!!! Also, be aware that it requires more than ONE Champion in a pedigree to make a star. Champion sire means nothing if the dam is worth nothing.

As stated in many posts "show' quality is merely an advertising tactic. I have seen countless breeders posting show results of the parents ,then come to find out the show was a small club level show. Same thing goes for schutzhund titles. I have come to really respect breeders who post videos of parents actually working(or show videos) and are actively involved in the specialty in which the puppies are being bred. I personnally wanted a puppy that would work at club level and maybe show at some point. I got a sick dog with major temperment and structure issues and the breeder still will not let me see parents work. the point is BUYER BEWARE. Look for real videos if you cant see parents in action.

I am by no means an "expert" but even so I thought I would share my 2 cents. I believe you can see some very distinct differences in puppies and a breeder familiar with the "show" environment knows very well what these differences are which could be obvious faults in structure, confirmation, and any number of areas that may not be in other pups of the same litter thus you have "show quality" and pet quality.......same with working puppies I would imagine most "experienced" working dog breeders can tell you at a young pup age which of the litter will be timid or agressive etc.....

My point is no it isnt 100% and there are exceptions to the rule but for the most part you can get a pretty good idea of basics from the pups working or show by watching and viewing them thus an experienced breeder can make fairly accurate judgements.

Joseph

This is not a topic that requires moralizing and/or flaming.  There is a technical issue here, too.  I wish to address that issue.

Just as we have a ZW system for hip quality, we could theoretically have an equivalent system predicting a probability or likelihood of a puppy of a given breeding earning a V rating.  (Could be SG or VA, but the % prediction for V would make the most sense to me.) 

The data would have to be pretty good and the statistical modeling somewhat sophisticated, but I think it could be done.  The ZW already exists.  Conformation judging has perhaps more dimensions and more subjectivity than hip ratings (themselves not unidimensional and not even objective, either), but it could be done.  The ZW equivalent of show prospects would probably not be as accurate, but it would presumably have SOME predictive power.For instance, a pure "pet" breeding might have a rating of .02, say,. meaning that 1 in 50 puppies of such a breeding would earn a V, and a breeding of two VAs might have a rating of .75, meaning 3 in 4 would, but no one could guarantee that any particular puppy would earn a V.

Of course, the 'sport' is perhaps more fun when 'show prospects' are judged based on art rather than science, but many sports have actually undergone substantial increases in statistical sophistication.  American baseball, for example.

None of this is to say that someone who claims that all her puppies are "show quality" is telling the truth or not, although it does suggest that a competent and ethical breeder should be giving odds, not guarantees, with respect to show qualities.   If a buyer's goal is a V rating, a puppy with a 75% chance is clearly worh much more than one with a 25% chance.

As a breeder of Samoyeds for 35 + years this is what I have learned.  SHOW QUALITY is a term of advertisement especially when you have a forum like this.  The german shepherd breeders have such a large and vast area of competition;  that is the only thing they can advertise for the competition that is out there.  IN the US, the competition is beyond great, it is almost to the point and past the point of being able to find good  homes for their puppies.  There are too many out there.  I have read every angle possible to sell dogs on this forum, and all over the world.  Not just the US.  The US being the worst as they have not been paying attention to details "like perfect conformation", hips, eyes, heart and thyroid;  a lot is shoved under the rug;  unfortunately. 

To pick a dog that COULD do it all for you of course you cannot guarantee.  You can have the longest contract of guarantees and when the dog(s) falls apart in most cases, you can not get your money back.  Every contract written has holes in it for that breeder to get out of replacing that puppy or dog.  When you purchase a dog you need to accept the responsibility for that animal for their entire lives.  If he can't for some reason get his Shutzhund 3;  there are other things that can be done with that animal;  not just that faucet of competition.  Everyone needs to accept this when looking for these dogs.  NOT all are worthy of being bred, nor all competitions, or conformation showing or obedience for that matter. 

You need to start with the temperament, structure, and fabulous qualities that stand out to you in that animal;  whether it is going to compete or not.  The parents lineage is frosting on the cake.  Just because the parents are VA/or whatever, does not mean that their progeny is guaranteed to be that high level of title.  Isn't going to happen that way.

Champions are achieved, not bred.  Focus on good health, health certifications, hips/elbows and eyes, their environment is 75 % of whom they will become; first and foremost their temperament.  You can have the most beautiful dogs with perfect conformation and if they have a bad termperament, you probably won't be able to achieve your goals with that dog. 

I could go on and on;  but I feel you can see my point.  You need to work with a breeder that you can communicate with, watch them in their competition with the dogs;  ALWAYS go a see the dog, do not buy on line without seeing the litter or adult you are purchasing,  that is just an accident waiting to happen.  You will open doors of disappointment and dispair not seeing the animal you are inquiring about no matter what that breeder says or does.  No matter what the so called guarantee says. 

I will deem a puppy "show quality" if it is free of disqualifying faults and appears to show strong structural correctness. A breeder should of course make it very clear to a buyer that a puppy may or may not mature into a winning dog, or even breed quality.  A young dog listed for sale as show quality should have already shown promising results in the ring, been xrayed, have correct dentition/ears/etc.  If it is an SV conformation dog it should be showing correct temperament to earn a SchH title.

Of course, what I think phrase "show quality" should entail, and the context in which it is actually used to sell dogs may or may not be the same thing.

My perspective of a "show quality" puppy may differ slightly with others...........
I "personally", have a competitive bone.....I really hate being in the middle, or the end of a class.
I do understand that "placements", especially in highly political shows like the Sieger Shows, are extremely hard to attain.....but I still want to give them a run for their money.!!   Make them sweat it!  Make it difficult for the judge to "overlook" my dog!
And I do agree that when purchasing a puppy, there is ALWAYS the risk, that the puppy may or may not "mature" to the full expectations of it's breeder or owner,...(.hips & elbows, correct adult dentition, correctly erect & set ears,) etc......but at the time of purchase, NO structural faults should be evident.
A "show quality or prospect" in my eyes,.....is the puppy that can push for the front of their class.....under most judges.
They must be "structurely correct and sound"........the puppy that I think is worth "holding" on to........and YES....some of us actually do place or sell them to the right homes, other than our own.
After all, being the breeder.....if I wouldn't show it.....why should you?

JMHO
Robin