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by mahon on 21 March 2009 - 04:03
Well I have to say I have heard good, Bad, Indifference and a couple dumb things, by posting this thread. It has been enlightning to many as it was for myself.
The good is that I have learned who is honest and who is not reputable. I now know some people that could not sell me a dog for no love nor money. It's amazing that others that carry the same lines now shun your e-mails or phone calls. Just because you asked if they have ever produced livers out of the same lines. Previous owners of both the sire and dam have tried to convince me that the puppies will change to a normal sable and the liver/tan will somehow become blk/red. I dont know why, I never told either of them I wanted to return the dog or that they owed me something.
Just thought they would be informative. To much to ask of some I guess. I will give a $100 to both of them if one of the pups liver nose and gums turn black , the heck with the hair.
The little liver/sable is now in a pet home NO PAPERS. He has a loving family that thinks he is Too Cool. They love his Macho attitude. And understand he is carring a recessive diluted gene for color. He is not from Mars or Radio-active and does not glow in the dark. They are friends that put thier 13 year old GSD girl down 6 months ago and are ready for another family companion and protector. They will serve each other well. That is what I hope for all my pups. Number one is they are loved and well cared for. Beyond that is all iceing on the cake. All buyers of this litter know there are two liver brothers in this litter.
To BREEZY1,
The odds are that at least 1 of the blk/reds or Nrmal sable have the liver gene. If you know of a genetic test let me know. I suggest you never breed German Shepherds as all carry at least 8 to 20 defective or abnormal or recessive genes.
Just as all humans and other mammals do. If you dont believe ask any knowledgeable Geneticist.
I have a step daughter with Ushers Syndrome Type 1. I guess you think she should not marry or bare children either ! Nor any of her brothers or sisters.
AS A BREEDER and responsible for what I produce. I know the moral and ethical thing to do. And have done so as I expect of my self. Not because others tell me I should or should not. I live and breed to my standard. Like it or not I'm paying the piper here , no one else.
I appreciate the exchange of ideas and knowledge others have brought to this thread and want to thank those for thier differing points of view. We can all learn something from everyone that we come across in life even if we do not think so at that moment in time. I will post pics of the pups as they mature for those interested.
Just my thoughts, mahon
The good is that I have learned who is honest and who is not reputable. I now know some people that could not sell me a dog for no love nor money. It's amazing that others that carry the same lines now shun your e-mails or phone calls. Just because you asked if they have ever produced livers out of the same lines. Previous owners of both the sire and dam have tried to convince me that the puppies will change to a normal sable and the liver/tan will somehow become blk/red. I dont know why, I never told either of them I wanted to return the dog or that they owed me something.
Just thought they would be informative. To much to ask of some I guess. I will give a $100 to both of them if one of the pups liver nose and gums turn black , the heck with the hair.
The little liver/sable is now in a pet home NO PAPERS. He has a loving family that thinks he is Too Cool. They love his Macho attitude. And understand he is carring a recessive diluted gene for color. He is not from Mars or Radio-active and does not glow in the dark. They are friends that put thier 13 year old GSD girl down 6 months ago and are ready for another family companion and protector. They will serve each other well. That is what I hope for all my pups. Number one is they are loved and well cared for. Beyond that is all iceing on the cake. All buyers of this litter know there are two liver brothers in this litter.
To BREEZY1,
The odds are that at least 1 of the blk/reds or Nrmal sable have the liver gene. If you know of a genetic test let me know. I suggest you never breed German Shepherds as all carry at least 8 to 20 defective or abnormal or recessive genes.
Just as all humans and other mammals do. If you dont believe ask any knowledgeable Geneticist.
I have a step daughter with Ushers Syndrome Type 1. I guess you think she should not marry or bare children either ! Nor any of her brothers or sisters.
AS A BREEDER and responsible for what I produce. I know the moral and ethical thing to do. And have done so as I expect of my self. Not because others tell me I should or should not. I live and breed to my standard. Like it or not I'm paying the piper here , no one else.
I appreciate the exchange of ideas and knowledge others have brought to this thread and want to thank those for thier differing points of view. We can all learn something from everyone that we come across in life even if we do not think so at that moment in time. I will post pics of the pups as they mature for those interested.
Just my thoughts, mahon
by Uber Land on 21 March 2009 - 05:03
MAHON, I believe there is a test, or at least one in developement that will tell you if a dog is a liver/blue carrier. I cang et the info for you if you so wish. I truly applaud you for your open honesty. you came here without being asked, or "called out" and posted your puppies. They are very beautiful! please keep me posted on how they develope (and if their pigment changes! LOL!)
by mahon on 21 March 2009 - 05:03
Uber Land,
If you come across a test let me know. I would be very interested in it finding out if they have one. They have a fawn gene test at MMI but I dont believe it is the same gene as the liver gene for color.
Thanks, mahon
Funny how so many people want dogs with courage and heart, Maybe it's because they cant find it in the mirror ?
Just a thought, mahon
If you come across a test let me know. I would be very interested in it finding out if they have one. They have a fawn gene test at MMI but I dont believe it is the same gene as the liver gene for color.
Thanks, mahon
Funny how so many people want dogs with courage and heart, Maybe it's because they cant find it in the mirror ?
Just a thought, mahon
by pod on 21 March 2009 - 09:03
Mahon, Healthgene have a commercially available gene test for the B- brown (liver) gene. There are in fact three separate alleles that can produce diferent shades of brown. It doesn't matter which of these is present in the GSD, the test should still apply to any dog with brown. They haven't yet made the test available for the GSD but I'm sure they would be interested in doing this for you if you contacted them.
http://healthgene.com/canine/breeds_list.asp
The probabilty for the rest of the litter (assuming both parents are normal black pigmented) is -
66.6% carrier - Bb 33.3% non carrier - BB
http://healthgene.com/canine/breeds_list.asp
The probabilty for the rest of the litter (assuming both parents are normal black pigmented) is -
66.6% carrier - Bb 33.3% non carrier - BB
by Mystere on 21 March 2009 - 13:03
Mahon,
You ARE doing the right thing. Thank you so much for your candor.
by GSDXephyr on 21 March 2009 - 13:03
I agree, this thread has been fascinating and educational for me too. I have nothing but respect for Mahon for putting this out there, and respect for a breeding program with full disclosures and open dialogue. I'm saddened that it seems there are those in the breeding community that would distance themselves from the discussion, but I suppose not surprised.
Heather
Heather
by sniffydog on 21 March 2009 - 18:03
Interesting, and thanks for the pictures! I'd never seen a liver-marked dog either, though a fair number of blue or blue-marked. I'd thought the latter had health problems in line with the blue dobermans or double-dilute collies -- can anyone confirm?
The original shepherd was bred to make sheep anxious and disappear from unfriendly humans until the crucial moment. Sables do both very nicely; black and tan, better than you might think. Then we had a couple of rounds of Selection By Sniper in the world wars, and white markings (never mind white dogs) are awfully easy to spot. If you wanted your message carried all the way to the next post or your scout dog back, you didn't want white. You also didn't want an attention-grabbing bouncy trot if you could get a level, fluid, blowing-smoke gait instead. Standards don't just appear out of the ether. "No blue or liver," I'm not so sure about, but I would suspect they aren't as naturally camoflaged in most settings as the black/tan colors. I've never had the chance to mess with either color in the woods or on crop stubble.
The original shepherd was bred to make sheep anxious and disappear from unfriendly humans until the crucial moment. Sables do both very nicely; black and tan, better than you might think. Then we had a couple of rounds of Selection By Sniper in the world wars, and white markings (never mind white dogs) are awfully easy to spot. If you wanted your message carried all the way to the next post or your scout dog back, you didn't want white. You also didn't want an attention-grabbing bouncy trot if you could get a level, fluid, blowing-smoke gait instead. Standards don't just appear out of the ether. "No blue or liver," I'm not so sure about, but I would suspect they aren't as naturally camoflaged in most settings as the black/tan colors. I've never had the chance to mess with either color in the woods or on crop stubble.
by Uber Land on 22 March 2009 - 00:03
here's a message from a friend of mine who has dilute dogs _
_______________________________________________________
The lab I use is DDC http://www.vetdnace
They can test for dilute (blue) and liver and I've had
reliable/timely service from them:-)) On the from you specify which locus
you want tested D = dilute and B = liver.
_______________________________________________________
The lab I use is DDC http://www.vetdnace
They can test for dilute (blue) and liver and I've had
reliable/timely service from them:-)) On the from you specify which locus
you want tested D = dilute and B = liver.
by luvdemdogs on 22 March 2009 - 04:03
The original shepherd was bred to make sheep anxious and disappear from unfriendly humans until the crucial moment.
Really? I thought it was bred to keep the sheep safe from wolves and other predators, not people?
Really? I thought it was bred to keep the sheep safe from wolves and other predators, not people?
by Uber Land on 22 March 2009 - 05:03
Shepherds were berd to herd the sheep, work with the Shepherd to move the flock from feeding pastures and back home. also brought in strays.
most of the protection came from the livestock guardian breeds, anatolians, akbash, pyrenees, owcharka's ect. these breeds protected the sheep against wildlife and people.
most of the protection came from the livestock guardian breeds, anatolians, akbash, pyrenees, owcharka's ect. these breeds protected the sheep against wildlife and people.
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