Sven Vom Grafental - Page 3

As per the 'norm' on here, one person with bias jumps on a thread and uses it for their own agenda.

Sven sired a lot more litters than just the 'Sindy Litters'  There are 34ish other litters registered on this database and I'm pretty sure there are possibly more that aren't.

I'm not getting into the in's and out's of the Sven/Sindy breedings.  However if someone can only look at 3?? litters out of one bitch and judge a dog based on them alone, that speaks volumes about the poster.

Time to get some perspective and look at the bigger picture.

AmbiiGSD  maybe because you have something from Sven you feel the need to defend. The thread was about Sven
used in breeding along with the Sindy breeding and Boban.Maybe you should invest in a SV ZW CD as Hukka has posted. Then you would see Sven has more progeny with no ratings at all. Again i will say do some research before you stick your foot in the wrong place. This thread was to help this Guillermo. He may have a bloodline that does not have the best prospects for hip production and my advice to Guillermo, Sven would not be the best option.

This thread was not about the Sven/Sindy breedings, it was about someone enquiring about a male producing pronounced fight/civil drive in the US or Canada from Sven.  Obviously Boban was going to be mentioned as he is Sven's most notorious? son.  Which then leads onto all the crapolla that goes along with him, and has done across various boards the internet over, for the past few years.

Just because I have something from Sven, or more intruth something from a sire linebred 2:3 on Gotz, Sven just happens to appear in that equation.  Doesn't mean I have to defend the line or for that matter slate it.  I try to look at bloodlines with objectivity.

Objectivitiy that understands that not every puppy produced by any particular dog, will be scored for hips and elbows.  Not every pup produced will be free of dysplasia.  Not every puppy will be what it is 'expected' to be.  And not every pup will be 'perfect'  Thats the complexities of genetics.

Okay....Sven x Sindy was not a good match....it takes two to tango , so if Sven has at least 34 other litters, then what is his hip production with these other dogs. If we are to help Guillermo, then I certainly wouldn't use info on one litter to make a decision if their is 34 other breedings to factor in....afterall Sindy could have an inordinate amount of influence on the breeding and with other lines Sven maybe fine. I don't know Sven or have a dog in this fight but I do know breeding and I would never make decision on one breeding on a particular dog if that dog also had many other breedings to give me an informed basis to judge the dog...JMo

Gustav, there are BVA hip scores from the Sven son in the UK posted above...They are only the scores upto april 2008 I can add progeny from some of those dogs scored later if  warranted.

From WinSIS Online not a complete picture but a larger one than is being projected here. (the url needs to be copied and pasted sorry)

http://www.schaeferhunden.eu/winsis_x/winsisshowdog.php?bb=&id=1963946&tp=6

So what do the scores indicate? I am not a Brittish breeder, and though I know most hip schemes in terms of good and bad, the BVA scheme is better explained by someone with familiaity.

Sven progeny 242 only about 72 have a rating. One opinion was he has a 86 zw so how can he give any hip problems.

Gustav in the UK hips are scored thus:

The hip score is the sum of the points awarded for each of nine radiographic features of both hip joints. The lower the score the less the degree of hip dysplasia present. The minimum (best) score for each hip is zero and the maximum (worst) is 53, giving a range for the total of 0 to 106

(Quoted from here http://www.bva.co.uk/public/documents/chs_hip.pdf)

The mean average for the GSD in the UK according to the BVA data sheet as of 1/11/2007 is 19 total

(Ref: http://www.bva.co.uk/public/documents/Breed_Mean_Scores_-2008.pdf)

So only 2 of those UK scores are above the breed average, obviously that isn't all the Quiyk progeny as not all will have been scored.  Just like Svens progeny not everyone is a breeder, not everyone gets their dogs scored, for one reason or another.  My male isn't scored as I have no intentions to breed from him. 

If Sven has 72 out of 242 progeny that are scored, I'd say that was a pretty decent cross section and certainly gives you more lines to research, for example how many of those 72 have gone on to be bred, and what have they thrown?

You have been harking on about research DDR SDG then why are you concentrating on ONE dog in a bloodline?  What about Svens siblings? what are their hips like? what are they producing?  What do the bitches that have been bred to Sven throw with other studs compared to what they have thrown with him?

Research is about taking data and cross-referencing it, it's about collating the bigger picture, and looking at it without bias.  Only then can an informed choice be made.

Thank you AmbiGSD for sharing this valuable and objective information.

If Sven has 72 out of 242 progeny that are scored, I'd say that was a pretty decent cross section and certainly gives you more lines to research, for example how many of those 72 have gone on to be bred, and what have they thrown?

I

  Wow what is so hard to understand? The 72 consist of   A1 ,A2,A3 & A4 The zw's go as high as 114. This should send up a red flag. Not pretty decent cross section. And because they have a SV rating does not mean any were bred. A fair guess anyone with a A3 and A4 would not be breeding.