The Bottleneck of the Century - Only one bloodline left! - Page 12

One last thing, let me debunk this Club/Training/Too expensive theory for seeing these dogs in top performance competition!!!!  Seventy-Five percent of all registered dogs in Germany are from showlines. There are "PLENTY" of clubs in Germany that cater to or only have showlines. There are "plenty" of showline males/females that are SG or Low V or even missing a tooth,etc that do not have the breeding value to stop them from high level training. Soooooo in a country where the elite sport training exists, there are many many clubs that donot discriminate against the showlines, and there are many dogs that don't meet that elite show status from the showlines or have major/minor conformation faults,  why do you "STILL" see negligible showlines in top prformance events. Plenty of clubs, plenty of dogs , top trainers available, know they won't be top conformation dogs, yet they are not competing and top working handlers are not seeking them out. AND they outnumber working dogs 3 to 1.  Stop it, Stop it, Stop it!! As long as people believe this garbage inspite of the factual information above, the showlines will continue to lose working ability. Sorry!

I understand that Horand was the first to be registered with the SV -SV1. However some behind him are known and are assigned SVALT numbers. What does that mean?

IMO in the context of the topic, the most important message to this thread is the one Darly copied here from the Willis book. The paragraph that beings with "It's a long was back to the early dogs". Their genes are still with us today, and will be here into infinity.  They will never be "bred out", they will only be rearranged as Willis has stated. I'd  also like to see COI's on some of this year's Va's and I'd also like to see them on a selection of the better workingline dogs here and in Germany.

From a neutral viewpoint, will never breed a litter of GSD's and couldn't care less about showing one, my observations are that there are far more demands on showline breeders assuming they are aiming for the complete package. Many workingline breeders seem to be one-dimensional in their quest for a working dog and it sounds like some would probably use a dog that looked like a hyena if it was an outstanding worker.  Some breeders fall somewhere in between and are open to combining the 2 "lines".  I sense a lot of snobbery between the showline and the workingline people which is cannabalistic in the big picture.  There is no common goal to bring you together in a united effort to better the breed. Actually I hate the term - better the breed, it sound like such a cliche, but I can't think of a good substitute. Sorry, but I don't see how any GSD lover can say - I don't care about the working/show lines.

Of course there are plenty of great trainers and clubs in Germany!  the vast majority of Showline people do not care. Get that into your head. they have NO interest in pursuing and perfecting work. It doesn't matter what is available. They care most for getting that show rating and starting to make money with puppies and breedings. Yes, the truth IS that most showlines can't cut it in real working venues! But that does not mean ALL of them can't!  Try looking at it this way... you may have 25% of showlines that could do a decent job in the mainstream work competition, so that means that 75% do not have what it takes. Narrow that 25% down to owners who give a hoot about competing in working venues. What do you think the percentage is then? To match up the right dog with the right person who will care enough to take it to it's full potential is next to nil. You also have to take into account that even going to a working competition with a showline dog takes guts, which most people don't have or they don't want to deal with it.  I am not afraid with the right dog. I can take all the idiot comments, and serve them up on a platter when the testing is done. Heck,  I spent 4 years listening every club day to snears and snide comments. They don't bother me when I know what I have on the other end of the leash. My original dog commanded their respect even though he was showlines. It takes a really tough person to stand up to all of that day after day. When all was said and done, my dog was better than some of their own working lines. Life should not be a fight it should be a continuous learning experience. People that refuse to learn are left behind. 

The biggest problem here is that you love wokring lines. I DO TOO!  But I also love showlines and I love the breed and want to see the division eliminated.  I see value in getting back to the total GSD who has it all! The difference is that you don't care about that. I am not alone, but there need to be many more of like mind. I amy not see it come to fruition in my lifetime, but I sure as heck am going to give it my best try!!!!

Debby

I think this breed needs a lot more Debby's.

Of course there are plenty of great trainers and clubs in Germany!  the vast majority of Showline people do not care. Get that into your head. they have NO interest in pursuing and perfecting work. It doesn't matter what is available. They care most for getting that show rating and starting to make money with puppies and breedings.

And here's the proof, from the Sieger show:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNz6mSMGXc0

This pitiful performance was good enough to earn Furbo a coveted VA rating (VA 8)!

I don't know much about protection, are you saying that he came off the sleeve too often and went back for some nibbles after the "out"?

Boy, he sure is a gorgeous dog though. Glad to see he doesn't have an Akita head  Sorry workingliners, I know it's not about looks, but I can't help but admire his type. What more can you expect from an AKC person.

Blitzen, yes, sneaking back like that and biting again are called "dirty bites" and lose the dogs points. The dog should also not worry the sleeve like that by shaking his head. The bite should be a full-mouth, calm bite. Here's what the routine SHOULD look like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzn_ylrKJbI&feature=related

Notice the dog is under perfect control, outs automatically as soon as the decoy stops resisting, and comes to heel on command from the trainer. He needs NO leash, and no physical restraint to stay at heel.

Interesting what you said about liking the dog! When I was watching him, I was thinking of what you said about how unathletic the showline dogs have become. I don't like his rear end at all. I think it's quite weak. Notice how he stumbles and gets his legs tangled when being pressed by the decoy (where he's hanging off the sleeve as the decoy is moving) and notice how the working lines dog in the other video manages to keep his feet under him by comparison. A dog that stumbles like this could easily injure or break a leg, and yes, it HAS happened!

Some of you are missing the theoretical point of the Courage Test.  It's not to show how well the dog is trained, but rather whether the dog has enough courage to confront an aggressive human.

If you really want to critique the courage tests in terms of how it is conducted and judged, the primary issue isn't the dogs that sneak themselves a dirty bite or don't come off the sleeve until the 3rd "Aus!"  Rather, it's the dogs that are given "pronounced" who nibble on the sleeve, come off the sleeve before being commanded to, or who otherwise don't firmly engage the helper.

Okay, now correct me if I'm wrong on this: don't all the dogs competing for the Sieger title already have a Schutzhund 3 title? If that's so, that isn't Schutzhund as I know it, or the handler wouldn't have so much trouble controlling his dog!

Edit: the database lists Furbo as being Sch1, IPO 2, but I'm not sure if that's up to date. Anyway, he has the equivalent of a Sch 2 title.

And, Blizten, I hate to burst your bubble, but here's his official picture. That head looks pretty massive to me!

I don't generally pay a lot of attention to the way a dog moves during the protection phase, would rather see him moving freely in the ring before making a decision.  Some dogs seem to be to be slinking around the ring unsure of what they are doing or maybe expecting a correction and I think any dog could stumble in the same situation.  Not sure what this video proves other than the level of his bite work and maybe the quality of his training. Yeah, I do prefer a more athletic looking dog,  one not quite so heavy bodied and I'd like a  straighter backline, but if there were any at the Seiger, they probably weren't in the first or second ring.  I honestly don't know if Furbo is agile or not, but IMO  he is  beautiful type judging by that short video and the stills I've seen of him.  He's not Dingo for sure, but he wouldn't be Va in 2008 if he were.

Thanks for the video. I saw a lot of the protection work a few years ago at NASS and didn't understand the scoring at all. Seemed to me that the same rating was given to most of the dogs even though some of their performances were much better than others. And that's show biz, sports fans.