The Bottleneck of the Century - Only one bloodline left! - Page 11

Debby,

Have READ all posts to this thread...Gustav, brought up the Captain so, I chose to keep my 2 cents worth simple by quoting him (Von Stephanitz).

Jasmine 

"Prioritzing work is GREAT and that is how it SHOULD be. Hence my drive for research. But it is a total picture of HEALTH, WORK, TEMPERAMENT, BREED STANDARD, and producing those traits consistantly that should be focused on as a whole. THAT is what Max wanted and also what is so badly needed by both camps today."

German Shepherd breeding is Working Dog breeding, or it is NOT German Shephed breeding.

Darylehret,

Thanks for the "Important early dogs" info...very interesting.

Jasmine

So, Darylehret,

Are you saying that work is ALL Max cared about??? Did he throw out the show ring and quit judging and making breed direction decisions based on the results??  Or did he PRIORITZE and put a great working dog over a dog that had better conformation but not as good work??  Did he NOT care about health problems?? 

Debby

The Captains breed standard for the German Shepherd Dog emphasised "utility and intelligence". It (the breed standard) contained the sentence: A pleasing appearance is desirable, but it can NOT put the dog’s working ability into question! And to be certain he wouldn’t be misunderstood, he coined the phrase:       "German Shepherd breeding is Working Dog breeding, or it is not German Shepherd breeding"

Jasmine....running for cover 

Jasmine,

LOL why would you run for cover when you are PROVING my point????

If Max didn't care about "appearance" then why would he call it desirable??? THAT is exactly what I am saying.  WORK IS A PRIORITY  but it is NOT EVERYTHING AND THE ONLY THING.  lol

Debby

Thanks Jasmine. Of course the others are important, but the one thing that can never be compromised, simply can't be compromised! If there were allowance for only one priority, it would be breeding for purpose, not appearance. I'm very selective for healthy breeding, and have had many nice looking dogs that produced very healthy and nice looking pups. But I want to produce a working dog above all, and my preference is one that is neither too "sporty" to be useful in reality, nor "too real" to be adequate in sport. Sometimes the scale tilts one way or the other, but they oughta darn well have good ability at something! Once you breed out ability, IMO there is no going back.

Working ability and temperament are so intertwined, that I'm in a way referring to both when I say one or the other. And of course, to an extent structure will affect ability as well, so in a way it's all looking at the total dog, but toward a single purpose. I'm not in strong agreement that the showline variety utilize the standard of conformation toward true utility, so I tend to disregard much emphasis toward that end. Anyway, my personal sense of aesthetics are definitely remote from that of the showline crowds. If you cut that picture of Uno (or Metin) vom Stadtfeld in half (see above), I'd take the front half, but leave the behind behind.

Just a couple of things here:

your premise is "IF" there was only one priority....THERE IS ONLY ONE PRIORITY AND THAT'S WORK! But you want to throw out all the rest ,or wrap it around your personal preferances and that is not reality.  Breed standard is there for many reasons and neither you nor I had anything to say about it, but it is our job to follow it to the best of our abilities. 

I don't believe that you give temperament it's just due without seperating it from working abilities. You can have a fantastic working dog with a VERY poor temperament.  That's because the dog is SUPPOSE TO BE SOCIAL as well as have working soundness. Some working dogs are not social by any means and some breeders LOVE socially aggressive dogs.  I call that the "Lion Tamer" mentality. Certain working trainers/breeders "get off" on a dog that they have to carry around a weapon of disapline, to keep control of. Rediculous! It's dogs and owners like that that give our breed a bad name. Nor is the temperament suppose to be so stubborn that it makes it hard to train. The breed is suppose to be happy in his work and wanting to please his owner/trainer. That is all part of temperament, as much as nervey, skiddish, scared and dull with no drive, is.

To think that abilities can not be improved is misguided at best and shows lack of knowlege of the past as well as the present. That is the whole purpose as a breeder is to improve upon what you have and know your lines and what characteristics are good and what needs improved upon. Your attitude also hints that you are one of those who thinks that ALL working lines work. that's simply not true.  I learn Schutzhund and spent 4 years at one of the USA's most prominant working line clubs. I saw plenty of working lines that did not work. 

YES, it is all to one goal. The total GSD with excellent work and within breed standard.

As I've said before, there will always be working line people like you who have no use for showlines and the opposite will always be true also.  But that is NOT where the bright future of the GSD breed lies. It lies with people who are open minded enough to see the benefits  and faults of each line and strive to continue to bring both back to where they should be. We can agree to disagree and that's about it.

Debby

Debby, you've made several unfair assumptions about me (and my type of dog) that are simply not true.  I don't have time (at the moment anyway) to counter any of them, but my belief (as well as the founder's) is that working ability is Rule #1.  And it is true, I have "no use for showlines".

If the temperament for work isn't present, the structure itself won't get the job done.

If the dog doesn't work, how could structure even matter?

A porche without an engine won't get you very far.

Debbie, you must be a "R"....LOL because how you can extrapolate my comment of "Max felt that the showring was a sure way of losing working abilities" into "Max hated showdogs" is simply way beyond me. He was talking about "Breeding for show" instead and breeding for work and "then" showing the dog if he had the goods!!! BIG difference!!!  Anyway....Good Luck!!