Agression with E-Collar - Page 1

 My dog is a blk sable close almost 3 years.  He gets very agressive when you try to make him out with the E-Collar during the protection tranining (SCH I). Instead of releasing the sleeve he tries to bite harder.   Any good technique to make him release the sleeve easier.   Thanks.

Did your puppy know what the out command meant to begin with?  Was it very clear in his mind before you started on the sleeve, before you used the E? 

FIRST, throw away that e-collar!  Also, I have an exceptional example of how the e-collar can screw with the dogs grip when used incorrectly for the out!  He is thinking the shock is coming from the decoy.  At a certain point in training the dog needs to trust the decoy. 

Second.  Back tie the dog with an agitation line to his harness then have a pinch collar on and a long line (15feet) on the pinch.  You will need another person behind the decoy to work the long line.  Let the decoy get the dog worked up and give him a couple of miss bites.  The other person is going to stand behind the decoy and work the long line.  Decoy gives a bite and sets up solid for the out....you give the out command and when you do the person behind the decoy is going to pull hard on the pinch collar and correct the dog into the decoy causing the dog to out.  The correction isn't a "pop" but a hard long tug till the person behind the decoy sees the dog is outed.  Person behind the decoy has to becareful and not trip up the decoy in the long line or smack him in the "jewels" with the line either.  But, your dog does need to be clear on what OUT means before you start trying to make the out.

Vickie

www.PowerHausKennels.com

You need to take a step back in the training.   It is not uncommon for dogs who do not understand the out command to fight harder when pain is introduced.  A correction, especially a painful one, can in some dogs raise the level of aggression in the dog.  This can happen with a prong collar or an E collar.  Remember pain is a stimulous and you have to watch the dogs reaction to that stimulous. 

If it were my dog I would try a different technique to teach the out.  I would immediately stop using the Ecollar or any hard corrections to out the dog.  From your brief post, I can't judge your level of experience and your decoys experience.  There are many positive ways to teach the out.  It usually starts with a puppy and his toys.  "Out" means drop what ever is in your mouth, ball, kong, sleeve etc.  If your dog is in conflict in the bitework and not outing you may be at a stage in training where going further could complicate your problem even more.   

One technique I would use if I were decoying for your dog,  would be to use two sleeves.  I would give the dog a bite on one sleeve and slip it.  The dog can hold that sleeve (if he holds it calmly) for a couple of minutes, then I would begin to work with the second sleeve.  The dog drops the first sleeve and he gets a reward bite with the second.  And repeat.  You also need to play with your dog with 2 toys at home and teach him what out means.  He drops the first toy, you throw the second and repeat that game with lots of praise.  This may take longer, but it's not fair to correct a dog for something he doesn't understand.  That is not disobedience; and I reserve corrections for disobedience not misunderstanding. 

I would need to know more about the dog and it's previous training before I would suggest other ways to teach the out.  I would not rush to get him ready for his SchH 1, it seems he needs a lot of work anyway.  You need to lay a good foundation in his bitework because this will carry him through out his SchH career.  Have your decoy work him in prey and settle him down and make him comfortable on the bite.  You don't want to escalate his aggression right now in the control work,  otherwise it will wind up being like the Lions and the christians during training.  I've been there and it's not fun. 

Easy.....Put dog on pole. Need two people one on long line with prong collar no e collar. Get dog drive. Always bark an hold then bite..helper take bite handler ous if dog not listen helper gives the dog no fight whilst handler gives correction. With the schutzhundist normally we train auto out when helper stopsn the dog goes to hold bark automatical. Should take a few sessions.

No E-collar.  

You've already done harm. 

You don't know how to use this device properly.

Moon's.

I teach my dogs the "out" before they ever see a sleeve.  I use a tug, and we play the fight game.  Then I pull them up in front of me, and ask them to sit.  After they are sitting in front I say "out."  Of course, at first, they don't know this, but if you can keep the tug perfectly still (takes strength with a good dog), eventually they will out.  As soon as they do I reward them with it again, and we play the fight game.  Then they sit in front while I hang on to the tug, and I ask them to out again.  They out this time a little quicker.  The game repeats over a number of days, until they are outing without hesitation. They do this because they know I will reward them immediately after and play the fight game, which they desire to do.   The first time my dogs ever bite a sleeve, they will almost always out, because it is just a bigger tug, but the same command.  There is not conflict between the dog and helper or dog and handler this way.  It just takes some patience.

DCW

 does without e-collar, and your dog will slowly lose the aggressions….

e-collar cruelty to animals is with wrong employment. use it for yourself and observe yourself whether you become aggressive or not….

Go back to putting dog on pole and follow the instructions many before me gave you. Also make sure that he "absolutely" understands "out" before you start the exercise on the pole. He should be able to out reliably with an object in a non protection role. Hard corrections are only fair when dog understands and is refusing to comply. E collars are very useful tools but as with all training devices " in the proper hands with the proper knowledge"...good luck!