Working and Show Dogs - Page 2

Hey Mike, you view a tape of the Canadian Sieger Show and your impression is (I noticed a definite "hitch" in their movement, accompanied by a slight waddle, and the appearance that it took some effort to get up to that "effortless gait"). So do you feel show line is a cripple incapable blood line. Endurance is conditioning, so if your biking 9 miles you are doing good as owner. I mentioned high speed short distance not due to lack of endurance, most working lines I`ve seen have a move power structure suitable for explosive movement but obviously not suitable for marathon. I have and love both the a working line and a show line. I know most are on one side of the fence or another, and opinions probably won`t change.

I hear all this concern and saw people doing ADs who talked about the extensive conditioning they do to get ready for the ADs. Both my HOT dogs did theirs totally or nearly totally without any prior biking. Just normal exercise. The male had never been biked before his AD. He was trotting strongly and beautifully at the end, and could have done another stint. As it ws, both of them passed easily, alert and not exhausted in teh breaks, and both went to training the next day, They are correct in functional structure as the endurance tests easily proved.

Fred wrote: " So do you feel show line is a cripple incapable blood line. Endurance is conditioning, so if your biking 9 miles you are doing good as owner." Do I feel the showline is crippled? Not entirely, however I do believe there is something wrong with the way those dogs moved, and it did not appear to be effortless in the least. Do I feel that the showline has a non-functional build? Absolutely, they are bred according to "engineering specs" (if you will) to meet certain angles and then to conform to the current fads. Working lines seem to be built on a much more capable level, instant bursts of speed and long distance "marathon" (your description) type workouts with minimal warm up. For the endurance thing, some dogs it is conditioning, not all. As Kougar mentioned, some dogs easily go out and do an AD with no conditioning. I bike ours in the fall/winter (summers and springs in South Louisiana are just too miserable and could be considered cruel) for fun, just getting them out with me to keep me company when I go to bike for exercise (I usually rack up about 80-100mi per week during the fall/winter). The older females I mentioned can do this level of exercise with a minimal warm up (a little trotting and walking around with some play retrieve to get the muscles warm and the blood pumping) and it doesn't even phase them. Both are from bloodlines known for passing on great natural endurance and it shows in them and their offspring. On the flip side of things, I know of some showline owners that have to start conditioning early (one started as early as 6 months prior to attempting their AD...which they failed because the dog was severely limping at the end...this dog was OFA Good & OFEL Normal), as their dogs can't just go do it at the drop of a hat and it really "gets their goat" that we really don't have to condition to be able to complete endurance type events.

intersesting conversation about endurance -- i emapothize with the comments about working dog lines .. i have to give my dog a workout .. truthfully .. jiust so i can work him .. and that is after a half hour of constant runnming ..,-- i do not like to use the word drive -- foolishness in my vocabulary -- but the definition of self motivation originating form a solid gentetic base states it all for a godd working line dog .. / burst of energy.. let me add : they hit hard , really hard [ compared to show lines overall ] and bite fast i.e explosive enrties with crushing bites!! they seem to have a solid stress level .. seems to be better wired genetically in working lines.

to kind of go along with Alphapup's comment on coming in hard and crushing bites... At training tonight, we had two local officers stop by the field. While they were there, they watched my wife work her older female (one of the 5yr olds mentioned by me before) and her younger female (our breeding out of the above mentioned older bitch). The first comments were "impressive" then the look of bewilderment and the follow up rhetorical question "those were females?!?!"...what was especially funny was the look on one officer's face when we told him that the 2nd bitch was merely 1yr old and he was floored that she was that young, working and hitting as hard as she was. It's all in the genetics!

Thanks every body for the valuable information I have always been into showlines and not much into Working Lines Thats the reason I was keen to know I think that Show lines can perform reasonably well if trained properly Thanks to evryone who has shared their knowledge

Training is the key I think....you cannot train the two types the same way. The highline dogs I have watched in developmental stages are having their drive nurtured and built, while, the workign pups are more being guided as the drive is so much more evident - like building a campfire up as opposed to containing it to your needs. I recently got a friend a new companion from a showline kennel and we had my 5 month old working pup visiting as they wanted another dog, and wanted to see a working pup. Even though their pup does have alot of drive compared to the BYB dogs they had had previously, they could see the difference between their pup and mine. I can see where he could be trained to do the work with care and nurturing, but you would have to do things much differently than with my pup.

But what is "the work"? IF the work is stricly schutzhund competition then those who do compete can speak better to that. If the "work" is patrol work or search and rescue or other real life endeavors, the dog should have intrinsic qualities that allow it to work with reasonable training (e.g., I do not want to have to desensitize a dog with inadquaete confidence to every possible *danger* they may encounter on a search - maybe you can do that in the shutzhund arena, but not in real life) Even the working lines are split, I think, between competition dogs and legitimate working dogs -- no? (I know your odds of getting good real working dog are higher in the working lines, but even there you need to know what you are looking for)

well - My understand of the whole purpose of the schutzhund test was that the exercises were intially designed as a breeding test to show the ability of the dog to do behaviors and show innate abilties through scenerios that would require certain behaviors in real situations. The level of the dogs genetic ability to do these exercises and the behaviors shown and evaluated would then show whether the dog was genetically capable of being used as or to produce dogs who would be used in real life work. A TEST - not as a sport. The popularity of the test turned it into a sport. Turning it into a sport then in turn made people find ways to get dogs through the test until it is not nearly as valuable as a breedworthiness test. My own 2 personal HOT dogs have been titled in the sport. LOL one is a bit too happy and is still spinning me in circles at the 2. But both these dogs have worked with a few different police department trainers. And I have received offers from K9 trainers for my male, and offers for pups from the female from K9 trainers. Several of her pups are in "real" work as SAR dogs. The training and testing of a dog through schutzhund will allow you to evaluate what you have to work with IMO and to use that knowledge in breeding to the standard for character and working ability.

ok i have a female that is half working and half show...don't freak out on me now. lol. she is now 5 and we are just getting our sch1, not her fault, it is myne. I couldn't find a trainer that would work her right. I got all kinds of defence work, which she didn't need and not much pray, which she has and will work in great. I am now working with Ken White (yes I am in TX) and she is just amazing. I was told my many trainers to put her to sleep because she would end up killing me and my son. hahaha. she is the best all around dog, LOVES KIDS she will play all day with my son in the pasture hunting things like rocks or sticks or anything else he can find and get her to look for. She is very serious and if pressured will bite and bite hard. she hits hard and bites like a male. I had one helper keep saying He is to small, you should just get rid of him. and I would tell him this is a female, then he would take a bite come off the feild and say that He is to small. What an idiot. I had to show him her girl parts and tell him again that this is a female. He had never had a female hit like that, then when told her pedigree he said she was a waist because she was half show. well I got very tired of the Sch people and stopped working in that line of showing. But as I am a breeder I wanted to do what the dog is bred to do. I found Ken and Russ Osborn and have loved the sport ever since. If you want to see her she is in this data base under Maya von haus Richards. Super nice bitch, I hope I can get her to produce what she is. I think she is perfect. Not for everyone but being that I am a dominate person we do well together.