Working and Show Dogs - Page 1

I dont understand why working GSDs do not equal Show lines as regards Physical conformation. If show dogs do not have working abilities then why should we breed tham at all, afterall the end result should be a GSD that is closest to perfection whether it is physical charecteristics or working abilities. Is there no possibility that a show dog will be good at working too?? If show dogs can work, then why should there be separate lines for working dogs Please help me understand Thanks

Alex You have started a topic that has been on so many boards so many times. You just sit back and read (maybe you will enjoy). Your questions are logical of course and I can only assume that you are new in this. Here it goes!!!!

Alex I would not rely on THIS board for many answers from the working line perspective as this is predominantly populated by showlines people. Do not assume, however, that working line folks even find the structure of the showline dogs to be an ideal interpretation of the standard, let alone consider them (as a general population) to have real working ability. If you want to find some balance (point - counterpoint) I would be looking at some of the Working Lines email groups as well. I believe the real split in Euro lines began around the time of Bernd V Lierburg (working lines)

I think its just what side of the fence you sit on. Show lines can work. There structure is more for gaiting more effortless. Working line structure is for more exsplosive movement which is usally acompanied by higher drive, so if you are a working pearson,thats what you like, if your show person then you don`t need a dog that move hundred miles an hour for short distance hitting like a freight train. I believe the impression of show line not being able to work is more from show people not spending as much time in the training. I like both.

Bernd Lierburg was a VA dog. Mutz Pzelterfarm and Frei Gugge were VA dogs. Marko Cellarland was a Seiger. These dogs are all seen heavily in the background of many many working dogs. The split came when priorities changed. Didn't Walter Martin say that he bred dogs to score 70-70-80??? The differences are in priorities. My friends with showlines have different perspectives and priorities in breeding decisions than I have. Uniformity in physical appearance via intense linebreeding is much higher in their priorities than in mine and other working line breeders. And Nancy is right, while I do not see any point in arguing the standard and what is "correct" and intrepretation, I find my SG dogs to be more athletically capable, more agile, than most of the bigger, more stately, more typical black and red show dog. In horses, I like the athletic cutting,reining or racing horse over the animal shown in hand or halter. Exaggeration of physcial characteristics and judging movement only is very very common in horse breeds - and those horse breeds are split as well. Thus,I cannot understand the strident animosity often exhibited between the two "sides". I have many friends with high lines, they have their ideals and goals, and I have mine. I never had a halter horse, I preferred to do jumpers or reining. But that did not make people with halter horses my enemies! I actually help friends find companion dogs, and most, not all, of them end up with highline dogs because I think they will be more sucessful as dog owners! That is not to say that working line breeders do not consider structure. I definitely do. Other than a bitch acquired close to whelping bred to an untitled male, my few litters so far have been between 2 KKL1 parents. My next litter is from Schh3, KKL1 parents - the sire V rated, black and a Marko Cellarland grandson, and the dam SG KKL1 Schh3. But structure is debatable, functional athletic ability dictates correct structure in many minds - not just in the GSD. Trotting is not the only test of structure. Jumping, scaling walls, doing narrow walkways 6 foot off the ground as in agility courses or running along bleachers in a police dogs drug search - these are all activities that are realistic measures of athletic ability. In observing dogs of both types working, one exercise in particular shows the difference between the types is the drive by the helper after teh escape - some dogs are very clumsy in their backs and footsteps, some are like dancers. THAT is functional structure showing up as athletic ability. The dog that flows and is agile has, to my eye, a more functional structure. And I am not saying that every working line dog is as athletic as they should be either. Working and show line breeders both are guilty of breeding for some extreme rather than trying to balance priorities in structure and drives and temperament. My dogs all have VA dogs in their backgrounds. My young male has Marko in direct male line in 5th generation. I want to see a dog, like a horse, tracking straight in forward movement; I want to see a shoulder that lets the dog climb, jump and land without undue stress. I want to see a rear end that gives the dog thrust and power, in both movement forward and movement in jumping and working. I want a dog that is pleasing to the eye - but Beauty IS in the eye of the beholder!!!! I LIKE sables and blacks!

Fred and Kougar - Thanks for your comments. I have never heard this conversation and openmindedness when it comes to this topic. My husband prefers working lines and I prefer show. He wants a dog that is a "hardcore" protector with extreme drive as the priority, while I prefer a dog that is more balanced and well-rounded in disposition along with athletic/protective ability...*and I enjoy the beauty of a black & red show GSD with the kind of incredible movement that renders one speechless - he prefers the beauty of dark sable working lines with the kind of drive/bite that renders a bad guy speechless!

GSDLVR...The "Black & Red" show lines are beautiful and my wife prefers them too...I on the other hand prefer the working lines...be it "Sables", "Blacks", "Bi-Colors", or "Black & Tans"...just be careful what you wish for you may just get it...before getting one...study and gather information on both sides of the fence...then decide...even attend conformation shows and working dog events...such as Schutzhund Trials...and ask a lot of questions...some people at both types of events are very difficult to talk to but you will always find some people who are willing to take the time and explain the differences between the 2 lines and their pros & cons...just be a very very knowledgable buyer...when people come to me to buy a dog...be it a puppy or an adult I always appreciate someone who has taken the time to study the breed and know more about what they want...It's a good breeder who takes the time to "fit" the right type dog with the owner...Good Luck!

Fred wrote: "Show lines can work. There structure is more for gaiting more effortless. Working line structure is for more exsplosive movement which is usally acompanied by higher drive, so if you are a working pearson,thats what you like, if your show person then you don`t need a dog that move hundred miles an hour for short distance hitting like a freight train." It's funny that you should say that the showlines gait more effortlessly...when I was viewing the video of the Canadian Sieger Show, I noticed a definite "hitch" in their movement, accompanied by a slight waddle, and the appearance that it took some effort to get up to that "effortless gait". And don't think that because working lines are explosive and fast, as well as extremely agile, that they have no endurance ("...move hundred miles an hour for short distance...."). I've got two 5.5 year old females (both working lines, but of distinctly different bloodlines) that will bike 9 miles, upon return to the house will get a drink, then push to do something else.

While I have not seen a large enough population of Euro Show vs. Euro Working lines to generalize on impact of structure on movement, I too have made the observation that my Working lines female is VERY efficient in moving though the woods and not just at explosive speed. Perhaps at a trot on asphalt viewed sideways she (Wgr Working) is not as elegant as my male (1/2 German Show x 1/2 Czech) but she can go all day long in the woods, and is very agile, while he is a bit clumsier with his body when it comes to maneuvering through over and under ravines, streams, logs, culverts, etc. He does get the ooohs and aaahs but I really do think she is put together better than he and is much much tighter.

I'm gonna sit this one out Mike, you want to take this one?...lol....Sometimes I feel like the only working dog guy here....