Female on female fighting - Page 3

I had 4 females in the house up until spring of 2007, when my 14 year old past away.  The dynamic changed a little with the passing of the older dog.  Ages, 7, 5, 2, two older ones are spayed, the 2 year old is not.  In the house, never a problem, going out of the house - problem if I don't take care of it by holding them back and inviting one by one out.  If I allow them to run out willy nilly then the spats would start.  If the neighbor lets their husky out and I am not out to supervise - fence running starts and possible fight could break out.  I simply do not allow this to happen, meaning I make sure I am right there in case the neighbors let their dog out.  If one growls over a toy or gives the other the eye, they are corrected. 

You said Heidi does not go out.side.   Does that mean she does not get exercise.  I find that a tired dog is much less likely to start something therefor mine go hiking, swimming, and lots and lots of training. 

 Ok, you said you want experiences...I'll start laying some out from my client histories. Let's take the first 4-5 off the top of my head (and realize I see this ALL the time and am constantly banging my head against the wall with people that will not listen because THEY will be the ALPHA and therefore THEY will be the exception to the rule. 

1. 2 australian shepherd/GSD mixes, mother/daughter. Mom was a 4 year old that was then spayed, and daughter was 18 months and spayed. Owner was a 6 foot 3 football player guy in training to be my assistant and a very capable dog handler. Dogs got along fine, slept in same bed etc, both had pretty reliable obedience control on and off leash. The male owner was very capable and could generally call them off a steak if he wanted to. until one day when they decided they DIDNT want to get along. I forgot to mention there were two 6 year old children in the same household. Dogs got into fight, 6 year old stepped in between and got bit nicely. One dog was rehomed, though not without damage to a 6 year old (because a SIX year old can't be alpha, and the father was not in the room fast enough, and the dogs had "always gotten along before" (because they always DO get along, until they don't!)

2. 2 GSD females, both spayed. One was 5 years old, the other was 2.5. Had lived in the same household for over a year. Owner was a young couple, the guy was a good handler, both were committed to making it work because they loved their dogs. The dogs moved into the same household when they got married and neither wanted to get rid of "their" dog, so they just had to have both. Dogs had not seriously injured each other by the time I got in to see them, though had had some spats. Owners said they would follow leadership protocols to the "T" because they just couldn't bring themselves to rehome. I suggested complete and utter physical control of the dogs at all times, and told them they would be walking on egg shells for the rest of the dogs lives because of the need for constant vigilance. Dogs did very well in obedience training, owners had individual control over both dogs. Until the younger dog pushed an issue with the older dog that she had never pushed before (she wanted to go down the hallway first, ahead of the older dog). They got into pretty nicely and the younger dog got chewed up pretty nicely. Emergency vet and nearly died. I again suggested rehome (because now the one dog was in constant terror that they would get into it again) and again they would not listen. I "fired them" as clients. They refused to listen because they had so many friends that had said they could make it work (because again, they were "alphas"). they did fine for about 8 months, at which point I heard from another friend that the older one had nearly killed the younger one when someone didn't close a door tight and they got to each other. 

3. 2 Rottie females, one spayed the other not. One was about 3 years old, the other about 2 years old. Had grown up together basically, they got both as pups, the older one was the only dog until they got the younger one. They had gotten along just fine, owners had pretty good obedience control over them. UNTIL the neighbor kid came over. Kid came into yard, dogs got overly excited and the older one decided she didnt' like the younger one getting pet first. Owner saw it coming but by then it was too late. Two rotties fighting, with a 10 year old kid in the middle of it getting his leg bit up. Again, this is an owner that had been very vigilant about not letting the dogs spend much time unsupervised together, kept solid obedience control etc. But it takes ONE slip, and someone gets bit. And it's not always the owner. 

4. 2 GSD's, both spayed, siblings, 6 years old. One was a shyer more submissive type, the other was more active and usually in charge. When they were 2.5 years old they got i

 4. 2 GSD's, both spayed, siblings, 6 years old. One was a shyer more submissive type, the other was more active and usually in charge. When they were 2.5 years old they got into a fight where the pushier one left multiple punctures in the other dogs neck and legs.Owner had "managed the situation" for 3.5 years. Dogs only together on leash, used dogs runs and crates etc. Whenever they saw each other they would "eye" each other though each would break eye contact at cue from handler. Owner was an older gentleman and his son, fairly competent owners. They had lived on egg shells because they knew that if these dogs got at it they'd really go at it. One day they were walking the calmer dog past the crate of the other dog. Crate was not closed tight, that dog got out and lunged. Owners gave multiple commands, but they were already at it. Harder they tried to separate the harder the dogs fought. The son (about in his 20's) got his ring caught on the pinch collar of one of the dogs. His hand was severely chewed, required 28 stitches, and a broken finger. One dog had multiple wounds and took extensive surgery to repair. Fortunately they were able to rehome her. 

Shall I go on? and on and on and on? There ARE people that can make it work. Not everyone has these kinds of things happen. Generally an extremely vigilant trainer may be able to make it work. But you have to know you need to be on pins and needles for a good 10 years because the minute you let up, someone could get bit. I've seen it so many times that now when I get a call from someone with 2 females fighting I almost invariably won't take it as a case any more. And almost ALWAYS I get the begging and pleading that "please, we don't want to lose any of our dogs". Sometimes even after going against advice to get two females in the first place, then they become attached and don't want to get rid of either of them. I have known some people that have gotten lucky and have never had the fights. But the fact is, I see more that SAY they know they must be alphas, but after a year or two of being alpha something slips and someone gets bit. So honestly, if you can't see where I'm coming from with the frustration level with people that say they can do it and be the exception to the rule, and that they put the time into training and don't really listen but try to only hear what they want to hear (they listen to those few that have made it happen rather then multiple stories of those that had bites because of it) then I don't know what to do. Do whatever you want, and honestly, I don't personally care, nor will I flame you. I can only just give you fair warning on what you're setting yourself up for. The thing is, if you were only setting YOURSELF up for a problem it would be fine by me. But you better be darn sure that a neighbor kid doesn't get bit, or someone else, or you, or that the dogs don't kill or maim or injure each other when the one mistake in 10 years happens...because THAT'S when I have a problem with it. ESPECIALLY coming from one of my beloved breed, because it's the breed that takes the rap for it. 

i really wish i'd known about this site before we got 2 female gsds. we'd had a mother/daughter pair (along with a son) who were mutts, and as the daughter got older, she began to dominate her mom, but it was never bloody or vicious. we went with 2 females knowing there would be dominance issues, but not that gsds take it to the extreme. every breed has its "quirks" i guess. unless you can deal with one dog kenneled or crated while the other is out, i'd get the opposite sex. it's one thing if you are a breeder and/or trainer, but if you have them as companions (regardless if they are sar, shutzhund, etc) then, to me, it would make for a happier home to have male/female. i still miss "my" girl and its going on 2 years now. if i could get her back and have a "harmonious" home, i'd do it in a heartbeat, but i know it would just not work. both of the girls were dominant and, well, at least now, my girl is in a happy home, my son's dog is alpha bitch (after me!) and angus gets to be bossed around by both of us. poor guy. but really, listen to the experts on this. for me, this is a case of "woulda, coulda, shoulda".

hello

 good suggestions but i do have 16 female  on my yard all GS dogs but i do not have  fights unless i say so , if any dogs got fight  if you don't know the dog better  do not try to stop them by hand  just use the water !!!! if you have  garden spray hose  that works great on  fighters,  even aggressive  males  stop their fights that is what my experence. try not to get fights

This has always been a facinating topic of discussion for me because I had never been told that two females can't get along and I have always done it.  I was really amazed the first time I actually came across this kind of discussion because I thought everyone was like me.  I didn't know I was an exception.  I have 15 dogs.  Two are studs, one is a fixed male rescue,  4 fixed females, and the rest are intact bitches of varying age.  It's one big happy family and I don't even think about it.  I can't imagine having to have everything seperate.

If I have to think about it, this is what works for me:

1) I AM the #1 BITCH and I can bite just as hard as them and they know it..LOL

2) I evaluate each dog that is a possible new addition to see what their natural status is to make sure I don't have two alphas at the same time.

3) I have an alpha stud and I joke all the time that he keeps his bitches in line....I laugh about it but it is true....he does.  If I even think there might be a squabble or a tentative testing of the pack order...I call my male.  All he does is look at them and they come slinking over to him.  Occassionally, just for the hell of it, my stud (the dominant one) will go over to a bitch put her on the ground and lay on her.  No reason that I can tell...we'll just all be sitting there watching TV or something and he'll do it.  I never correct him either....I figure they must be sending mental notes across the room or something to deserve it.  Like I said, I have no idea if this is unusual or not, and I'm too old and trained in MY ways to care..lol

4) I DO agree that there can only be one alpha in a pack.  You can have several 2nd's and every other kind of mix, just not two alphas.  I did lease a bitch who was an alpha and I had a resident alpha.  I knew they could not be left together, however that was the only combination I could not have.  The leased bitch, got along fine with all the others, even though she was a kennel dog to a tee and came from a setting where each dog had it's own little run.

5) The ONLY time I separate a bitch from the pack is when they are coming into heat, because those hormones will get ya...come to think of it, someone should separate ME when I am hormonal too...lol.  Even so, I usually only have to separate the one in heat from the intact ones, they go into another play group with fixed members no problem.

Life at my country house is good!  Here's a a few "family" pictures....I do need to get an updated one.  Obviously, the first one is of the rescues, there's 2 fixed males, one stud, and the rest fixed females in it.  The second on is 4 bitches (5 if you count me!) and my stud who was not too happy to have to sit for this particular picture!

Oppss...forgot to do the pictures....probably better anyway since I don't know how to shrink them...actually, I am only sending one because the other one is way too big.....how do you shrink these pictures?  Anyone?

Palestar

Not to impune your ability, but I have a 82 year old Grandmother that has multiple female Golden retrievers.

By the way, you spelled separate, seperate. 

Palestar

I don't want you to think that I am picking on you, so I will elaborate.  I think different breeds are hard to compare.  Even different dogs of the same breed will be different.  I have had females that could and couldn't be placed with other females.  Some people get lucky with two females that don't mind being inferior to the alpha.  Some people get unlucky and end up with two extreme alpha bitches.

I don't think it is the same to compare 10 yorkie females living together to 5 GSD females together.

  I once had a female Scottie and a female GSD together.  They were  VERY   attached and bonded to each other, as well as to me.   There was no doubt or question that I was pack leader.  But....that did not keep them from really getting into it, when I was not around, or asleep!!!   (I  knew nothing about keeping them separated)  The gsd tried to kill the Scottie on three separate times, once literally ripping the Scottie from her throat to mid-belly.  The Scottie never backed down, never gave up and never surrendered for ___.  Ever.  The first dog-bite I ever got in my life was from trying to break then up:  the gsd had the Scottie by the throat and the Scottie was fighting back.  She was the one that nailed me.  I still have the scars ( and nerve damage). 

I WILL NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES HAVE TWO BITCHES AGAIN!!      I will never intentionally have two males, either, but at least they don't tend to fight to the very death...literally.   Males have rules.   If one rolls over, fight over.  They do the canine equivalent of going off and having a beer together.  Bitches have no rules!!  If one rolls over to surrender, the other one simply rips her heart out.