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by luvdemdogs on 14 March 2009 - 06:03
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by katjo74 on 14 March 2009 - 06:03
by pod on 14 March 2009 - 09:03
So if Frankie was just a spontaneous mutation (dominant gene like you say), coloration not from a recessive gene hidden for many many generations, how do you explain all the other litters, NOT RELATED to Frankies line being born? whats the chances to have such a "rare" spontaneous mutation to keep popping up in more and more litters?
There can be absolutely no doubt that Frankie's pattern is a new mutation, it segregates as a dominant, not a recessive. Do you mean litters from the same breeder producing typical panda pattern and not related to Frankie? I wasn't aware of those. Could you post some links.
If these others are just the odd occurrence like Inca's puppy above, then the four possibilities that I listed will apply. If, as you say, the incidence of white spotting is increasing, it could be down to a depleting gene pool increasing the incidence of rare recessive doubling up and expressing this pattern. And/or possibly breeders are more inclined these days to be open about these things and even celebrate them as 'rare' whereas in the past they would have been put down at birth without a word said.
Sunsilver. I've discovered the table feature. There's a symbol in the toolbar at the top of the message box.
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Pp | Pp |
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ETA: Hah! The table outline has vanished. There must be a way to fix that :-)
by katjo74 on 14 March 2009 - 23:03
The pics of the blk/white border collie marked GSD adult posted by GSDXyphr isn't related to Frankie posted above.
The pics of the newborn pup up there posted Incavale isn't related to Frankie that I know of (never said such), also posted above.
I can't find the specific link now on Hoobly to show you that there's been a litter of Border Collie marked AKC GSD pups advertised (probably all are sold or gone or the ad removed-it was just there a couple of days ago)-sired by a normal looking blk/red GSD father. The mother was a light blk/tan with the white BC markings on face/nose, chest, legs, and tail tip but there are non-Frankie related GSD pups resembling border collie pattern marking for sale here from time to time-they're offered from Indiana and Ohio. They were just on there for the past 2 months. I don't save peoples' pics off of ads, so I don't have it to post. Sorry.
As for the litter that was born at least 10-15 years before Frankie, they are not remotely related to her, either (Frankie's dad was an import so its impossible from that aspect of things). I do not personally own the pics I was speaking of and don't own personal access to them (they're not digital, but they do exist), but the source is reputable-the breeding was pure. In the litter there was like 1, maybe 2 LONG coated GSD pups with the border collie markings produced. Now you talk about looking like Border Collies. lol-they did. I haven't SEEN anyone else with THAT one, yet(long coated "Pandas"), except this person who was kind enough to share her pics and show me that she indeed produced the SAME thing-just no blue eyes. I was truly amazed.
So YES, border-collie marked German Shepherds exist without being directly related/linked to Frankie. That's what we've been saying all along. If it's really just a one-time spontaneous thing, then why is it seen cropping up in different places not tied in with Frankie?
by GSDXephyr on 14 March 2009 - 23:03
Heather
by Uber Land on 15 March 2009 - 00:03
http://www.gaardog.com/Gandalfpedigree.htm
and the mother:
http://www.gaardog.com/saskiapedigree.htm
I don't have pics of the puppy, she had a 1/2 collar, full white blaze, white chest, and 1/2 way up her front legs was white
by Uber Land on 15 March 2009 - 00:03
http://www.puppyfind.com/view_listing/?list_id=8xta19pin3&sid=b73b52f743c1564791d562986a718735&back=%2Ffor_sale%2F%3Fbreed_id%3D54%26country%3D%26state%3D%26page%3D11%26order_by%3Dlist_date%26back%3D%252Fbrowse%252F%253Fstr%253Dg%2526page%253D1
http://www.puppyfind.com/view_listing/?list_id=741w94e3x9&sid=b73b52f743c1564791d562986a718735&back=%2Ffor_sale%2F%3Fbreed_id%3D54%26country%3D%26state%3D%26page%3D14%26order_by%3Dlist_date%26back%3D%252Fbrowse%252F%253Fstr%253Dg%2526page%253D1
these are ads just off puppyfind.com
and I know www.k9-pines.com recently had a litter od sable and black pandas
by katjo74 on 15 March 2009 - 02:03
OH-I missed that GSDXyphr. My err on that one-Sorry 'bout that.
I have seen plenty that were not related to her, tho, just like Uber is saying. The ads are out there.
by pod on 15 March 2009 - 09:03
Others that claim to be pandas might not be at all. It could be any one of the other three possibilites responsible, and the breeders are just cashing in on the panda bonanza. The one case that could be interesting is -
I can't find the specific link now on Hoobly to show you that there's been a litter of Border Collie marked AKC GSD pups advertised (probably all are sold or gone or the ad removed-it was just there a couple of days ago)-sired by a normal looking blk/red GSD father. The mother was a light blk/tan with the white BC markings on face/nose, chest, legs, and tail tip
Assuming this is an entire litter with white marking, It is possible that this could be recessive irish white spotting and either intentional or coincidence that the sire carried too. The expected ratio would then be 1:1 spotting:no spotting but not unusual at all to have a full litter of one type with that probability. It sometimes happens that large litters of all one sex are born. The same ratio probability applies to gender. Do you know how many were in the litter and the colours of them all? Other explanations, as above, this could possibly be another new mutation. Could be the same panda gene or completely new one.... or, a big white dog has jumped the fence.
The litter with one or two Collie marked pups is most likely a case of recessive irish spotting. If both parents carried, the expected ratio is 1:3 spotting:no spotting.
The difference with the true panda gene is that it undoubtedly first occurred as a new mutation. If it had been present in either of the parents, then it would have expressed in them, and I believe the parentage has been DNA verified. And it breeds consistently as a dominant. All other cases of white spotting that I've heard of in Shepherds can be explained in other ways.
Just a mention of the blue eyes. There's at least three ways in which blue eyes are produced. The most likely in the case of Frankie is that absence of pigment in the facial area has meant that it is also missing from the eye, causing it to be blue. Breeds with a lot of facial white do tend to have this type of blue eye - Border Collie, Dalmatian, OES etc. The fact that Frankie's blue eye did not pass on to her progeny or segregate in the same way as the coat pattern can be explained this way. It's just a matter of chance which areas happen to be populated by pigment cells in migration, but there seems to be a natural defence mechanism in place to ensure pigment gets as far as possible to the most critcal areas ie the nose, eyes and inner ear.
by katjo74 on 16 March 2009 - 01:03
Pod: Blk/tan panda/border collie-marked bkl/tan mother bred with a normal looking blk/red sire and their resulting litter as posted on Hoobly that I was mentioning:
They advertised both males and females in this litter. Maybe 1 normal, the rest affected. The best I can remember, the entire litter pic of the pups just a few days old here appears most to all affected with BC markings. And definitely looks like blk/white and blk/white/tan tri border collie newborn pups (I'm not questioning whether the litter is pure-there's no reason to think its not)! I think the ad itself is gone from Hoobly now, but here's the litter anyhow.
The thing that intrugues me is, these white pattern markings are indeed identical to the Border Collie right down to the white tail tip, called a "lantern" in BCs. Does this suggest some ancient relation between the breed?? I have seen some border collies look a little on the long-coat traditional blk/tan saddle-back GSD look, too, by the way.
So, a sable pup without white on face is going to have blue eyes due to lack of facial pigment? I can see such for the dogs with the abnormally large amount of white on their face/noses like some of these, but straight sable-? The sable blue eyed pup was featured in an ad right here. This bulletin provides info on the sable blue eyed pups I'm referring to (possible diluted gene involved with coat color?) http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/classifieds/72428.html
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