Elbows and Nero Norbactal - Page 4

Preston, I can't conceive of an "injury" that would necessitate the arthroscopic removal of "bone fragments" from the shoulder. I was fairly unsophisticated (read "stupid") when I used my Zeus of Fran-Jo son (with OCD of the shoulder) at stud. Neverthess, I did not show him. To the best of my knowledge, he never produced OCD of the shoulder--but an abundance of other problems down the line. The questions remain: (2)did the seller have the surgery performed without informing the buyers beforehand; (2) did the buyer have the surgery performed after acquiring the dog?

This is my understanding from a very reliable source. Maybe my source and Preston's reliable source will give us a better picture. I do not know about the conflict between the breeder and the buyer. Here is the story as I understand it. The breeder saw that the young dog had a problem in the way he stood--east and west in one leg. He had an operation on the young dog-3-4months old. His vet gave him the bone fragments which he, the breeder kept. He later sold the dog to a buyer and told the buyer of the operation. As the young dog matured he looked better and better. The buyer entered him in shows and he excelled. He excelled to the extent that in 2003 he went select. Then the stuff hit the fan. Nero was accused of having an operation but it could not be proved that he did until the breeder produced the bone fragments and a DNA was run. This proved the operation. I am not sure that the ED is the problem or whether the operation was the problem. I suspect that it was the operation. See Bob-O's comment above. I think this subject was gone over to a large extent a year ago or so ad infinitem. One might check this out if they are interested.

e c street: "I am not sure that the ED is the problem or whether the operation was the problem." ************************************************************************************************ Of course it was the surgery. Up to that time, almost any German dog could conceivably have had ED as participation in the SV's elbow registry was "voluntary". From the evidence you've presented (the bone fragments and DNA analysis), I would conclude that the dog had ED. Lovely (sick?) breeder (and, to a lesser extent, the owner) for knowingly promoting a dog after cosmetic surgery. Why not ban the breeder instead of the dog? I agree that Nero produced some really quality dogs. However, problems may arise when some idiots inevitably decide to linebreed on him.

Louise, I always look forward to your comments. I have a high regard for your opinions. I would like your reasoning, though, on the following secenerio. A breeder has an operation performed, and later sells the dog. In the contract it is stated that the dog has had the operation. Has the breedwer not performed his obligation? Is it not the owner's responsibility then for any showing that might take place. It sounded as if you might be castigating the breeder rather than the owner. If not, please clarify. I think in the Nero situation, as I remember, the breeder was exonerfied and the owner penalized. Maybe you remember or maybe Bob-O can give us some additional information. My personal feeling, with $1.82 can buy you a cup of coffee at most Starbucks, is that he was and is one heck of a dog and has produced some excellent off spring. ecs

e c street: "In the contract it is stated that the dog has had the operation. Has the breeder not performed his obligation? Is it not the owner's responsibility then for any showing that might take place." ************************************************************************************************** You mean that dogs are actually sold with written contracts and guarantees in Germany? ;-) ;-) Why did the breeder continue to exploit the situation financially and wait until it was no longer to his advantage financially before reporting the surgery? How sophisticated were the owners--were they perhaps naive, not wealthy country folks? Did the breeder fully explain to the owners the implications and possible consequences of the surgery--or did he continue to demand payments? As far as I can determine, the SV has in the past always had a "don't ask--don't tell" policy regarding elbows. I recall, in the late 80's or early 90's, when Dr Funk gave a presention before a group in California. When someone asked Funk how ED was dealt with in Germany, he reluctantly admitted that it existed but denied its hereditablity. He indicated that, on the rare occasions when ED cropped up, that they would just "put a screw in it"!! If the breeder was exonerated and the owner punished by the SV, I suspect that it was due to "technicalities" and that the former was an established breeder (having a "known" kennel) with one hell of a lot more political clout than the latter.

Louise, I think that we each have our opinion and neither is going to change. I tell you what will not change. You come to Memphis and I will buy you the biggest Latte, Frapachino, or coffee from Starbucks you want. My treat. ecs

For a 3/4 month puppy to have surgery for UAP is mind blowing for a start the processes usually do not close until 20 weeks however I have had puppies that have closed by 18 weeks and my close friend her female puppy 26 weeks. However no-one has come up with a real reason - it is "relaible sources" etc. If Nero did have UAP or OCD would one expect to see some stats for the progeny to reflex this?? I cannot find any evidence so far at all. My Laius Moorbeck daughter produced a male puppy with UAP to an Ursus son in her first litter. Should I have rehomed her?? Should Ursus never have been used at stud?? She went on to have more litters with no UAP and now her grandchildren all have normal elbows. OCD does not usually present itself until the dog is older also. I guess no-one for sure will ever really know.

DP of Videx knows what happened. I don't know how much he feels is appropriate for this forum. I believe that the surgery was to the shoulder joint, not the elbow. I haven't heard of Nero produced a significant amount of elbow dysplasia (un-united elbow dysplasia) or DJD (degenerative joint disease, ie. as represented by "patchiness" of the smooth bone areas on xrays). The SV is much more acceopting of patchiness on Xrays whereas the OFA will not accept any for the normal diagnoses. I know that good vet surgeouns have used pins or screws to unite the anconeal process, but it is my understanding that there is always some sequelae such as limited reach. Nero's sidegait was so perect tyhat I seriously doubt this surgery was ever done. I think Louise's view is probably the most likely. I always thought OCD (osteochondritis)could be caused by supplementing with too uch calcium and little chunks of clacified cartiledge overgrowth could occur with no serious irregularity to the shoulder joint. Once these small calcium pieces that become loose are removed (ie. flushed out), the joint moves smoothly again. Hereditary, maybe but if so a collection of infrequent recessives. Whatever the case was, Nero's movement was so excellent and powerful, I doubt he had any ongoing elbow issues. Plus he was rumored to have clean elbows. he whole matter is a sad one since Nero was so near perfect in temperament and confirmation and was such a prepotent producer.

I agree the ban should have been about the People who did wrong not the dog. Still I feel the vet records should have been released for the knowledge of all those with dogs related to Nero. And any considering breeding into and/or purchasing the bloodlines. I think it just weird that the breeder held on to these supposed "Bone fragments" as well. ( Kinda like Monica L. and her Blue dress?) Thanks to all for adding what you know about the seller/breeder factor. I was not aware.

Lennie of Estahaus Kennels, who have filmed the Sieger Show in Germany for the last 39 years and sold the films, is an infrequent poster on this site. He has a lot of contacts in Germany and may know what the facts are around the Nero issue.