Elbows and Nero Norbactal - Page 3

E C Street, the S.V. has EVERYTHING to say about surgery on a dog to make it more show-able or correct a hidden fault. Any surgery to enhance the appearance/movement of a dog is a disqualifier. Yes, we are aware that a few tails and ears have been corrected, and these corrections are sometimes easy to spot. Yet, knowledge and proof are two (2) different things. I think you will find that the A.K.C. takes a similar stance on this. Even minor surgery to remove a broken tooth must be documented if the dog is to continue to be shown, i.e., proof that the tooth was once present must be maintained. I have seen dogs shown that were missing part of an ear or had a muzzle that is heavily scarred from a fight. In these cases the fault is usually overlooked (as far as the breed survey is concerned), but never expect that dog to place as a low V- or VA-. Regards, Bob-O

Bob-O You are exactly correct. Therefore, I think you have your answer to the Nero controversy. It is not so much the elbo thing as it is the operation, maybe. What say you. ecs

If Nero had had traditional surgery for ED (UAP or FCP), this could easily have been verified with xrays of the joint. If the surgery was arthroscopy to flush out bone fragments, how the hell did bone fragments get there. Sounds like OCD (osteochondritis dessicans) with arthroscopy to flush out a so-called "joint mouse" (to prevent degenerative joint disease?). Years ago, before Wind and Packard did their seminal study of ED (particularly FCP in the Bernese Mountain Dog), I had a litter sired by Langenau's Watson. From this litter, there was a gorgeous black and red pick female who was limping in front. I had her affected elbow xrayed (even with a dye injected into the joint). Nothing appeared abnormal (based on what we knew about ED in those days). When the vet suggested an exploratory surgery, I said, "Wait, let's xray her hips first". Ah, but there were no hips--so the pup was euthanized. The vet saved the elbow joint for me. All that I could see unusual was an eroded area (wearing through the cartilaginous tissue covering the bone) in the trochlear notch that had the appearance of OCD--nothing wrong with the anconeal or coronoid processes. Up to that time, I had never heard of OCD of the elbow. There were no reports of this in the literature prior to the Wind-Packard study. According to Wind, ED is caused by an "incongruity" (essentially a poor fit) of the joint. This incongruity results in an instability. IOW, there is lots of jarring movement within the joint which (1) can affect either the anconeal or coronoid processes (causing non-union of an anconeal growth plate or fragmentation of the coronoid process) or (2) lead to the development of OCD (and DJD). At least, this how Dr. Wind explained it to me with the use of diagrams. She also gave me copies of her published study.

Louise, as usual you have so much to explain and thank you for that. I did look today, and the Nero Nöbachtal is listed on the hip dysplasie database with a ZW of 73, so he must be back in the breed book. Can anyone determine otherwise? Regards, Bob-O

Close but no cigar. There are some who know the full story. DP of Videx is one and he was driven off this site by Mike (the avatar)'s unrelenting, slanderous, rude, crude, insulting personal attacks. Before he quit posting invaluable info here, DP did however state a general summary of the dispute over Nero. I don't recall what he said. Sad that mike and his peanut gallery drove so many top GSD experts away from this site all in the name of "slick humor". I will state what I remember from my own source which should be considered unsubstantiated hearsay through a secondary source. Nero supposedly had clean elbows. Nero may have had a training related shoulder (not elbow) injury. He may have been a small bone chip removed from the shoulder joint with arthroscopy. There was a complete recovery and this was in no way a genetic issue. When Nero was sold maybe payment was not completed. Maybe someone told the SV about the surgery and the SV then demanded the veterinary records. Maybe the prior owner wouldn't allow the vet records to be released which would have quickly cleared up the matter (maybe a payback issue perhaps?). But here's what we know for sure about Nero. Nero had top confirmation, very hard, correct working temperament and a superb and powerful sidegait. This can not be disputed. There is good reason to believe that he has been a top producer of such traits as well as superb pigment, and overall excellent confirmation. I believe he could have gone VA 1 or 2 or Sieger had the injury and dispute not occurred. There are some superb Nero progeny here in the USA that deserve serious consideration for use as a stud to suitable bitches. Nero has been a truly magnificent animal and overall superb producer in my view.

Preston, what you appear to be saying is that Nero had OCD of the shoulder and had arthroscopy to remove a joint mouse or mice. I had a Am-bred dog with OCD of the shoulder and had surgery for it. To the best of my knowledge the OCD did not result from a specific injury but was rather a developmental thing having to do the metabolism of cartilage to bone. Regarding the heritability of OCD of the shoulder, Willis writes: "There is some suggestion that the excessive use of calcium encourages OCD but there is also considerable evidence of inherited features. This is particularly true of the foreleg." Bob-O, Nero remains in the SV's database based on the hips/elbow xrays of his progeny. This does not indicate that any other Nero progeny have been registered since the ban.

Louise, you may be correct. I had heard that it was due to an injury and not OCD. But I suppose only the actual vet records and xrays would tell the story accurately. Would I ever breed a bitch to a stud with proven OCD of the shoulder? I wouldn't but many would if the dog was a good enough producer and was bred to a bitch line clear of this for several generations. Isuspect that the issue of this in regard to Nero only became known because of an unresolved conflict between the seller and the buyer. Who knows how many top GSDs are sold or exported with "hidden" genetic problems that are never revealed publicly.

Louise, thanks for that. Just out of curiosity I will look at the next S.V. Genetics CD-ROM to see if anything has happened. As far as I know, all of his progeny born after a certain date were denied admission to the breed book. Regards, Bob-O

http://www.schaeferhunde.de/site/index.php?id=688&pos=1&tx_SVTableView_pi1[searchtext]=N%F6bachtal&tx_SVTableView_pi1[searchcolumn]=zwinger&tx_SVTableView_pi1[displayperpage]=50 Actually, his ZW score is 73! This figure may be a somewhat skewed in that the xrays of only dogs with good prelims may have been submitted to the SV. *********************************************************************************************** Preston: "I suspect that the issue of this in regard to Nero only became known because of an unresolved conflict between the seller and the buyer." I've heard "EXTORTION" discussed regarding the relationship of seller and buyer.

If this story is true, how terribly pathetic that the breed as a whole should suffer such a loss due to that kind of pettiness.