Interesting liver pups - Page 1

http://www.holan.com.pl/slajd.php?go=miottpedigree Classified: Extra Braun-braune Welpen http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/classifieds/49058.html This means that we get liver through a Larus son when bred to an Orbit daughter!

I don't think it's that easy! If it were, then we'd mate VA with VA and get ???????????????

Extra Braun-braune Welpen I guess that is deficit of pigment, isn¿t? Please have a look to the noses.

There have been two threads on this recently, with some interesting links. One of them provided a link to known blue and liver carriers. Both genes are recessive, so a pup must inherit them from both mother and father in order to be afffected. Let me go hunt for those threads, and the links... I think one reason these two recessives have never been eliminated from the gene pool was in the past, breeders would just drown or euthanized the puppies, so no one would know their dogs were carriers. Okay, here are the two recent threads: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/151873.html http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/151561.html This lady has a website devoted to blues and livers. Please note, she does NOT breed them, though she did have an 'oops' litter at one point. Sadly, she lost all her dogs when they were accidentally poisoned: http://www.bluedogs.8m.com/ Here she provides an easy-to-understand explanation of the genetics involved: http://www.bluedogs.8m.com/info.html The blue is a dilution gene, so if the pup carries both genes for liver as well, the liver colour will be diluted, producing fawn, as happened in her 'oops' litter, when her 7 mo. old pup mated her bitch. (NEVER underestimate those young 'studs', they mature a lot earlier than you think!) http://www.bluedogs.8m.com/info.html Here is the list of well-known carriers, some of the best known dogs in the history of the breed: http://www.geocities.com/sahiela2/index.html Interesting topic. Although I don't think we should be deliberately breeding for these off colours, it's important to understand how the genetics works. As one of the threads says, there was an American champion that was blue. Whites have always been banned from the American and German show ring, but until 1968 (I think) blues and livers were not.

http://www.guardianforestkennels.com/cgi-bin/geneal.pl?op=tree&index=949&gens=5&db=MyGermanShepherds.dbw Here is a database that tells color coat carriers of blue, liver and white. it's interesting to see what dogs are carriers of different colors. I do have a Blue Shepherd, he is out of a black and tan and a solid black. I had no idea when I bred my dogs that we would have a Blue. After reviewing his pedigree on this database, I see where the blue came from.

Louise, Jeck v. Noricum is a liver carrier, and he passed it to Ero V. Batu. However, if you look at the sire's side of the pedigree, it looks like the gene must have come from Urus?? [Gulp!] Anyone ever hear of Urus producing liver?? I can't find any carriers on the dam's side of the sire's pedigree!

I just posted the link out of academic interest as I have mever seen very young liver pups--only an occasional blue. Obviously, both parents must carry the recessive gene, However, we can't say for sure where the gene came from without DNA testing of grandparents. I know that Winifred Strickland has stated that livers/blues are not as rare as some would have you believe. Both parents have to carry the recessive. Years ago, I had a male who produced a total of 2 blue pups out of perhaps 40 litters. I didn't even know that he was a carrier until he was of advanced years. I've never "heard" of any blues/livers from Ursus Batu (even when bred to a probable blue carrier). My Ursus son has never produced off-colors even with a 2-3 linebreeding on Ursus. I am aware of one know carrier, when bred to an Ursus granddaughter, produced a litter containing no blues. I had littermates (both AKC champions) sired by a Bernd Kallengarten son out of an Ulk Wikingerblut daughter who produced no blues--even when inbred. However, I know that they had full siblings (from a repeat breeding) who were blue. Basically, I don't worry about off-colors but would recommend against breeding two KNOWN carriers. We often learn of carrier status by randomly breeding two unknown carriers. Otherwise, totally removing carriers from the gene pool is like throwing the baby out with the bath water, IMO.

Louise, I can see where the sire got it from now. He has Ero v. Batu, a known carrier, and son of Jeck, another carrier, on his dam's side, so Ursus is not to blame, and I'm sure by now, we'd know if he was a carrier! Where it came from on the dam's side, I'm not sure. Hungarian lines aren't well documented, and so far I can't find any carriers in her German side. Yes, it's snowing out there, and I'm bored, and have nothing better to do... :p

I thought a good pigment isn¿t only for beauty. If there is a lot of pigment than a lot of healthy? This loss of pigment isn¿t for to breed? May be I misunderstand it.... cannot believe that the "new line of GSD" just now should be "liver"....

Senta, blue and liver pigment and fading pigment are two different things, though neither one is desireable. And believe me, this breeder did NOT deliberately breed for this colour of pup, as it is not allowed in the show ring. Blue and liver are recessive genes. Both parents must carry them in order for the pups to have this colour. Fading of the black pigment in a dog appears more often, and the way it is inherited is more complicated. It's not just a simple dominant/recessive trait.