Guarantee on hip dysplasia - Page 1

I have a question: I have heard a lot of people talk so much about health guarantees and such. SCENARIO: Mr. A is a breeder who sells a puppy to Mr. B with a guarantee on hips and so on. Prior to selling the dog, Mr. A had preliminiary X-ray done at 4 months and then the hips look good. However, at the age of 18 months, Mr. B does X-ray and finds that dog has HD. What happens if Mr. B was extremely careless with the dog and messed his hips up. Or how do you determine if the HD was a genetic thing or just an issue of a careless owner? True enough most breeders hope their pets go to responsible homes, but who knows. Should Mr. A disagrees to change the puppy (assuming contract states owner must be responsible) is he wrong? If he agrees to exchange the puppy, what protection do breeders have from careless, irresponsible owners?

First, 4 months is WAY too young to be able to correctly assess the hips of any large breed dog. Most vets I know won't even xray a dog that young. Penn hip would have been a much better choice. Personally, I do not agree that environment can CAUSE HD. Slippery footing, poor nutrition, overweight, etc might make bad hips a bit worse, but it will not cause a dog with normal hips to become dysplastic; it's in the genes. If you read the OFA website, there is plenty of information there to back this up. IMO, this breeder owes the buyer a replacement dog assuming that was what he guaranteed in the first place. It's just the right thing to do.

Blitzen, you rightly suggest reference to the OFA website. Are you aware of the new research summarized and listed there by the OFA which suggests that a screening hip xray is diagnostic for disabling HD if taken at 12-16 weeks 79% of the time? I have always had good results doing screening Xrays at 6 months old in the past and not had any dog that looked good with fairly deep sockets (acetabulum) and round femur heads well set into the acetabulum turn seriously displastic where the dog would ever have symptoms. About half the time the hips turn out OFA fair and the other half OFA good when done at two years old and submitted to the OFA. I look at OFA fair in some cases as potentially mildly displastic. Based on the new research posted on the OFA web site, I now do a screening Xray for hips at 12 weeks old. I am willing to take the 20% odds if the pedigree depth is good for hip producing, the parents are either OFA, or at the best side of "a normal". Of course selecting a puppy for breeding is a real gamble since it is unwise in my opinion to breed the dog unless it turns out to have preferably OFA good or at least OFA fair at a minimum.

Back in the 70's and early 80's I and a couple of other dog enthusiasts (one had GSDs the other standard schnauzers), Xrayed full litters at about 8 weeks, about 16 weeks, about six months, one year, 16 months and two years. We found that puppies which turned out to have disabling HD at 6 months to two years had showed flat femoral heads, shallow acetabulums and typically showed weakness or limping in the rear at 5-6 months old. (to me disabling HD is when a dog has limping, trouble moving--I have seen dogs with mild to HD which never showed any symptoms their whole life and never seemed to worsen, and in a few cases even improved). We found that bitches before, during of soon after a heat often seemed to have looseness in the fit in the joint but no other abnormality. When re-xrayed the hips of these bitches there had almost always tightened up as before. There were some litters where at least half of the puppies met the criterial for serious HD early on, and typically these were from litters where at least one parent had mild HD in at least one hip. We also found that in some puppies hip status that was marginal, appeared to improve over time to appear normal(which suprised us). We also experimented with positioning and found that we could make normal dogs look somewhat worse or better based on subtle positing changes (this surprised us too). We also found that anesthesia made some hips which had round femoral heads and fairly deep sockets look worse. Moral of the story is that one should not overreact to a borderline hip for a pet, especially if the dog is young. One time I had a bitch that developed a serious limp and weakness in the left rear one winter. I had her Xrayed and it was her left hip that was lax (had previously been very good). The vet diagnosed disabling HD. I found out later that she would run hard when I let her out in my fenced in backyard and would slip on the snow/ice and slide into the fence (hitting her left hip quite hard-she was a very exhuberant bitch). When I changed the configuratiion of the fance and she stopped slipping on the ice, her left hip tightened up within 5-6 months and again Xrayed normal (she had stopped injuring herself!) I prefer a breeding animal to have super clean hips but one must always be open to making exceptions based on the value of the blood of the specific animal as ong as its hip producing ability is fairly good. We also noted some variation in certain puppies with laxity when re-xrayed soon after showing laxity in the hips,(they later tightened up!) The moral of the story is that hip status is not always as easy to discern as one would like and a bit of laxity in otherwise well formed femoral heads and acetabulums may turn out to mean nothing. I'm sure that the SV knows all the diagnostic problems with hips and therefore has decided to set up a balanced common sense based system which does not overreact and leaves most responsibility to the breeder and breed wardens. Elbows are a whole other matter and a very big risk especially in German imports. There are several different types of problems that cause the OFA to NOT give elbows a normal rating, including un-united anconeal process and general inflammatory DJD (Degenerative Joint Disease). The diagnoses of elbows is problematic and very controversial unless the signs are clear, which often they are not. The OFA has been known to reject elbows for small, almost miscroscopic inflamatory or arthritic changes. Oblique and anterior/posterior views in my opinion are prudent with elbows since some problems only show up that way and not in lateral views.

Yes, I did know that, but they are referring to disabling HD, not mild or moderate HD, either of which would eliminate a dog from my breeding program. I guarantee a dog sold as breeding/show will receive an OFA clearance, so I prefer using dogs with excellent or good ratings. However, depending on the pedigree, I might use a fair but not to another fair. I never have and never would breed to or from any dog with uncertifiable hips. I've xrayed a lot of puppies at 6 months of age, my own and those owned by clients and friends (when I worked as a vet tech). I don't remember any clearing at 6 months and not getting OFA numbers later. You probably recall that OFA once certified at one year and later upped it to 2 because some certifed young were showing signs of HD at a later age. I'd rather wait til 6 months, actually 8 or 9 for a prelim hip xray. At 12 weeks you can identify the severely dysplastic puppies, but what about the milds and moderates? They will most likely fall through the cracks at that age.

Like Preston, I have done Xray trials in the past. Conclusion, if they are normal at 3 months, they are normal at 2 years and beyond. I have re-xrayed certified dogs even as late as 8 years to find the hips are still good. I have seen 5 month old puppies with high show placements have no hip sockets and changes present. If a dog has bad hips, they have them from birth. OFA does rate xrays as early as 12 weeks and I feel most breeders should stop selling 8 week old un-xrayed puppies and keep litters until they are 12 weeks and fully xrayed prior to sale. This way the breeder can eliminate obviously severe hipped animals so that they do not have to suffer or pass that suffering along to a family. The buying population has to get over the idea of wanting to have their puppies as young as possible then coming back after a breeder with complaints about hips. If they're so concerned with hips, just wait 4 more weeks. You'll both be much better for it in the long run. With the obscene prices breeders are charging these days for puppies, there is no reason why they can't keep their litters for an additional 4 weeks and xray screen them prior to placement. If the buying public starts to demand it, the breeders will be forced to comply.

This is the most stupid thing I've heard in a very long time. A dog can first be temperary x-rayd sometimes around 9 mounths.

Sbstein, try doing some research and maybe you'll learn something.

What you consider is amatour experience and with no hold in any statistic. Your "search is based on a too small number of dogs. Why do so many veterinariens recomend not to do so? The few ones hwo recomend this only see the money in it. I've x'rayd a severel dogs between 5-9 mounths but there is no systematic in it. I've seen many puppys wich has been x-rayd with 4-5 mounths were the hips were terrible - they have never got a "normal" or "fast normal" stamp. The bones are "not bones" when they are pups. Yes - I can be agree with pups in the age of 6 mounths which seems "normal" on x-ray and in all fysical activity. But x-raying pups at 3 mounths ??? There are several problems around x-raying pups at that age...which any breeder of course chould avoid. I suggest that you think about other worse problems of the GSD than keeping the focus on the hips of a small puppy. This is madness !

Sbstein, Most breeders are trying to weed out bad hips the earliest and most accurately they can. If xraying at 16 weeks identifies those with severe HD, then xraying that young can be of value although I would consider that value limited. I'd suggest anyone interested to ask their vet if they have a textbook showing the hips of large breed dogs at various ages. There is a distinct advantage to waiting til the dog is more mature, but when time is of the essence, 16 weeks is better than nothing I think. A breeder could sell a 4 month old, xrayed clear puppy with a certain amount of confidence that it will pass OFA as an adult although some will most likely show mild to moderate HD at 2 years or older. Xraying at 4 months is not 100%, but what is in the dog breeding world? It all depends upon how the breeder is using that information when selling that puppy. If they are saying - this dog has been xrayed normal at 16 weeks so it will OFA (or receive an "a" stamp, etc) as an adult, it's a stretch, especially so if there is nothing in writing guaranteeing certifiable hips. I didn't get the impression that anyone responding to this thread was using a 16 week xray as anything but a screening tool. Xraying at 16 weeks or even 6 or 8 months is what it is - a screening xray intended to give a PREMLIMINARY look at that indivduals's hip status with a view to the future. When I was searching for my 2nd GSD, I was a bit taken back by the prices being asked for a pet with virtually no guarantee of hip status. I did not expect anyone to guarantee an OFA number on a pet, just against crippling HD as an adult; some dysplastic puppies go through very painful stages that are outgrown as they mature. However, I did not expect to pay $1,000 on up for a pet quality puppy with no guarantee against severe HD. I've read guarantees on websites that will not replace or refund on breeding/show prospects if they do not certify - for paying half of the original puppy price you will get a second puppy. IMO, a buyer should have to pay zero if that puppy was purchased as a breeding/show prospect. Several thousand dollars is a fair price for a quality puppy from quality, xrayed clear parents, but way out of line for any puppy if not guaranteed 100% against HD as an adult. Buyer beware and be sure you get what you pay for.