It's not just a dog show - Page 1

I don't understand some of you and your statements.( It's just a dog show) After all the money, all the training, all the time,Cleaning, not going on vacations,and just the all around BS that comes with this passion we have for German shepherds and showing.It's not sour grapes, and I don't mine loosing to better dogs.But which end of the leash is the judges looking at? We all know the truth, don't we.This is not a personal attack on anyone.I'm sure we're all in this for the same reason, to better the breed.If some of the dogs that do win a class, only on the politics, and not on the dogs structure and temperment. What measage are we sending out to the people that want to breed. They think if these dogs are VA dogs or high V's then they are the ones we should breed to.And I don't mean everyone? so please don't get this wrong. Breeders will breed the type dog they want for there breeding progam.But not all.As far as the measuring issue at the show.Some of the dogs that placed high were just as big as some of the dogs that were said to be to large. My male returned from getting his sch titles from Germany not that long ago.He's kk1, not kk2. So why then and how can this judge tell me different. Then he's telling me that the judge in Germany his a liar, and that my kor report his garbage.If I had my report in my hand in the ring, I would have ripped it up and handed it to the judge.This male has been shown before, and had no problem then.Wether he would have done something in the class or not, this is wrong.How then can a kk1 dog from Germany be judged differently.Were some of these dogs a threat to others.( I don't know.) But I would have liked the oppertunity to find out.Some had much higher placings at the sieger show in Germany then the dogs that VA'd .After traveling many hours and spending much money and time from home and work, to be told go to the end of the line, is BS, no more and no less.Ask yourselfs if this is what you want to go on. Do we just settle. Why then do we continue.On another note. According to the USA and the sv. when a dog bites a helper, this is automaticly DQ. I know some will be mad about this post, but they shouldn't be.This is not and attack on them or anyone. If I offend people then ask you're self is he right and should things change so that others may know what it is like to be at the top , or close.

Good luck on this one! Politics will always have a say in the dog world. YEs it is frustrating to hear about it but even more when it is right in front of you. 

Different Judges look for different things. I had one that was big on pastern, and another on ears being up all the time so on and so on.

Some people find the judge that they like and only show under them while others just enjoy showing and really don't take it to heart.

This will never change.

Topdog, I asked this question on the thread about the Canadian show and I don't think I got an answer. Is there a procedure in place with the SV for filing a grievance against the judge who allows illegal action at a sanctioned show? If so, why don't exhibitors use that procedure when they are eye witnesses to illegal behavior like a dog biting a helper?  Why hasn't anyone registered an offical complaint with the SV if it is against the rules for a dog to bite the helper? I saw something at NASS a few years ago that should have been DQ'd for a young female, but the judge allowed her to return to the ring and she placed in the top 1/4 of the class I think. Everyone complained about it except the owner and her friends who said it didn't happen the way everyone said it did.  As far as I know, no one ever filed a grievance about that either, but there sure was a lot of complaining about it.

If you continue to let "them" get away with flaunting the rules,  they have you by the short hairs and it will never stop. Frankly, I'd think about UKC shows rather than keep sticking my tongue in the light socket.  If SV wins aren't the real deal anyway, why not have fun with your dogs in another venue?  I'd rather enjoy my dog and save a lot of money in the process. In that respect a dog show is just a dog show.

Simple really.  Each and every umpie in baseball, each referee in basketball and football, all have their "ways" of judging and none agree 100% with the next guy.  When you enter a hobby that has judges, referee's  of umpires, you have to accept what is given on any given day.  Part of the "game" is learning what this or that judge likes or dislikes.  It is never about fairness nor about consistency.  It should be, but it is not.  That's the game you entered.  Accept it or move on to something else.

I referee basketball games and my "pet peeve" is "traveling".  I am always looking for an excuse to call it.  I have an agenda in basketball to curtail the laxity the game is giving to the "traveling" violation.  Most referee's ignore it unless it is way overboard.  It does not make me a bad referee (it IS a violation), but it also does not make the other referee's bad (their is some type of violation about every 10 seconds or so in a basketball game and who wants hundreds of calls in a 48 minute game?).  I have never entered a dog "show" of any kind, but I assume that judges at those events also have their "pet peeves" (no pun intended), and their agenda's.

Learn want each judge is "about" and plan your entries accordingly.  It IS part of the game (hobby), part of preparation for the show.  It ain't just about the standard, the training and the abilities of the dog and handler.  It is also about the individual judge.  Sad, but true, and it ain't ever going to change.

I personally think that with the technology we have today and so many people video taping the shows, the "problem" will naturally become less of a problem as evidence can be posted on the internet of flagrant misbehavior, if caught on video.  I personally am unfamiliar with all the "rules".  It would be nice to have them posted on the club's websites.  That is if there are rules and codes of conduct.  The working dog classes are what most come out to see, no doubt.  If anyone can provide the show rules and regulations, please do. 

That's a good point, Sunshine, one I hadn't thought about. I can imagine the videos on U-Tube now .

Do right, I agree that some is subjective and a matter of personal interpretation, but when a dog does something as blatant as biting the helper or running from the ring when the starter pistol is fired, it then becomes a matter of following (or not) the rules that are meant to include for all exhibitors. No gray areas then.

Do right and show no fear. This is not football or basketball , baseball. If you have never enterd a show , and you're compairing this to real sports and umps. Then you don't know what I'm talking about. It's not knowing what or who the judges like or dislike, it's more then that.  And everyones what I'm talking about.It's no secret.

 Blitzen,Yes we can file.And I will or did.USA says, if a dog bites the helper other then the sleave the dog is DQ'd, out , why this judge did'nt do his job, You tell me.I was told to contact the head judge in Germany (Gunther Diegel)  Also regarding the measuring.Which I still don't know how they can go against the SV or the judge that gave these dogs kk1 in the first place. That's telling me that something is deffenitly wrong and crooked.And if the sv or any other club want to do something about the size of a dog. and start cracking down on oversize dogs then they should make that decision and start fresh. And any dog that already has his or her korng then that should be excepted.

 The big problem is that the people that complain about the BS to others, don't have the gonads to file a complaint with the sv , or USA or WDA. As for myself. I don't care about what people are going to say or think.What is fare is fare.And when winning becomes so important ,that we have to cheat or use are influeneses Then why bother.When you stop injoying it and there's no more fun. Then it"s time to leave.

On another note. The personal bashing has to stop.I know for me there's a few people that try and start rumers about one of my dogs, as far as his ability to have pupps.These statements are false. He has been tested and I have puppies from him. His oldest is 11 months old.But I'll deal with these people on my own. Like you Edison from NJ.When I see you in person. Will see what you and your cronies have to say.MY friends, ya right!!  How low will you stoop.See you soon.

top dog:  It is obvious that you are upset about something that recently occurred against you, and not just discussing the "sport" overall.  I am discussing the "sport" overall.  Yes, I have never entered into a sport or show, but I have attended.  I also have never eaten dog poop, but I am sure that it tastes bad..  You state that If I compare dog shows or dog sporting events to "real"  sports, then I don't know what I am talking about.  Well then, I can't disagree except to say, dog shows, schutzhund trials, fly ball and all the rest of the dog sporting events, ARE real sports, at least to everyone I know that participates.

As someone else stated, and to my own knowledge, every sport has a governing body that appeals and disputes can be taken to.  Do that and if you lose your appeal or dispute, then you did your best and it didn't work out.  Either accept it or move on to another hobby or sport.  There are politics, agenda's and favoritism in EVERYTHING that has humans in it.  Reminds me of that little prayer diddy that has been around for awhile.

God grant me the courage to change the things I can,

the strength to accept the things I can not change,

and the wisdom to know the difference.

I agree with Top Dog in that many of us put our entire lives on hold and make many sacrafices both personel and financial to compete in these dog shows. I commend the breeders that drive thousand of miles each year to attend these dog shows with the intent of making a positive impact on the breed. Their are very few kennels in North America  that actually make any financial gainsby attending  these shows. I feel very strongly that while politics is a fact of life what i witnessed at the Canadian Sieger Show was so out of line that it was personally sickening and degrading to all the North Americans that participated. It is a very sad situation when so many witness something wrong and complain about it but only a very few such as Top Dog have the internal fortitude to stand up and say this is Wrong! This sport is made up of a small cadre of people and when people stop showing their dogs because they know that there is NO chance of them competing on a fair playing field we all lose out. The Hobbyist, The Breeders, and unforutunatley the German Shepherd Breed. I do not feel that Top Dog should be forced into moving into another Hobby or Sport because their are politics and corruption in a sport. I have known this man for many years and he has dedicated almost 20 years of his life to this sport and the German Shepherd Breed. It is time that this sport and those that participate in the sport demand equality and fairness in judging. While atending the Canadian Sieger Show last weekend i likened watching the show and comparing it to the 1919 World Series in which the Chicago White Sox threw the series to a team that was nowwhere near as talented they were. The Cinncinatti Reds. Because of that baseball almost folded if not for one man doing what was right and setting an example for all the others that agreed with him but were to scared to say anything. Up until today i was not going to go to St Louis because the same judge is judging their but i feel that i that i would only be cheating myself and the dogs by doing so. I supprt you in pursuing and correcting the injustices that occured not only against yousrelf but those that lack the courage to do so for themselves. I hope that you will continue to compete in the sport that you have dedicated so many years of your life to.

Top Dog, you must have known your dog is a big boy before you sent him to Germany for his KKL. What you do not seem to understand is that a dog can be breed worthy and pass a KKL, even in KKL1, but not considered for a top placement at a show. Example - working line female of mine is KKL1, and 'only' G rated. She got her KKL1 rating based on her own merits and the hope for her future contribution to the working lines, has a rare remark for a female in her KKL report that she is suitable for the improvement of working ability. That KKL1 does not automatically mean I will get a better show rating with her. It might put the odds in my favor now though, providing I prepare her properly and then show her under a judge who likes the working lines. But I am not automatically entitled to receiving a better rating just because she KKL'd in class1. Another example - NASS 2006 Young Dog Sieger Female, great bitch. Big girl. She got her KKL1 earlier this year, was then shown at the SS in CT and ended up way back. Thought she would move up in the free heel, a really strong point for her and she just shined. Did not happen, and unfortunately at barely 2 years of age she did not have any progeny or other show results to help her out. Talked to the judge after, and the discussion was all about size. I respect his decision. If I look back as if it was someone elses dog, the decision was correct. There were large dogs ahead of us, and large dogs in the front in other classes. C'est la vie. Yes, I am dissapointed - that is a totally different issue. 
You might want to take a few days and look at what poor sportsmanship your posts represent. I have a hard time believing one German judge calling another a liar. Never come across that one yet. You talk about money, winning, ripping up a KKL report had you had it handy, fairness, betterment of the breed, etc. If you want to better the breed, become a judge. It will not happen because of the few dogs you or the next person breeds. I see no issue with fairness. The judge is entitled to his opinion, you are entitled to yours. The judge looks at the whole dog and what it brings to the table and can look beyond size, KKL report, import status, handler and a few minor things that people always bring up when things did not go their way. The judge always has the leeway to place an overall good specimen higher despite a flaw. And a judge can never go beyond their personal preferences either - everyone interprets the standard differently after all, thank Goodness. Size is an issue that the SV has been addressing for a while and right now it is in a transition phase. Size will still be an issue for another year or two til the next generation, which is being selected more thoroughly for size right now, will be more uniform in that aspect and the very large dogs will just not be there any more. Until then, it is within the judges discretion as to how he or she decides, and that should be respected as is.
So this time it did not go so well for you. Have you ever complained in the past when a dog of yours was not penalized for size, or maybe bite work was soso but the judge let it go, or whatever reason something worked in your favor. Surely you did not complain then. People never complain when the political climate is in their favor. Like you did not complain when your dog got his KKL even though you just told us he is obviously over size. Those 'politics' you apparently had no issues with. So lets keep it a bit real here. You made a judgement call to bring the dog despite the size. It did not work out, so be glad your dog got his show ratings and his KKL and move on. He may be a good producer - size and SS show rating alone will not determine that.