"Tiffany / Wal-Mart" breeding - Page 3

Sorry angusmom, you must have typed yours while i was on the phone!

D.H., super super post and oh so true.  Thanks very much!!!!!!

I am having a difficult time with this post.  I see too many, and talk with too many, people that buy a designer dog for $1,500 to $2,000 and promptly have huge vet bills.  I've been in visitng with our vets when these people show up with their sick pup they bought a few days before.  The same with the $250 dog from the newspaper, how "inexpensive" is it after a few months of vet bills due to poor breeding.  I don't see why a good quality GSD pup should not bring the same as the "designer" dogs.   

Thank D>H> ., saved me from typing......you cannot sell a buyer a pup you pick for them   ,,,,for some , they will take your suggestion, right pup for right owner,,,but Americans balk real quick if you try to tell them what to do.....Ive had mad people,look at me after picking pup c and I nicely, show them that pup D, would be a better match, as they have two tiny children, and pup C is bigger and deemed by me, passing temperament tests,previously, to be the number one pup to go after any object faster and more focused on objects, and many other things , making this pup, one that will be focused on two litte childrens movements and high drive that they wont be able to be handled by family members,  and they say,,,,no we want to buy this pup , my husband likes this one better.......one month later I get the call,,,,,,we dont know what to do....did we make a mistake in not choosing the lesser dominant and high driven pup......duhhhh   why do you think I tried to tell you.....now , after many hours on phone, and getting them a trainer,   at 4 mos old, to learn to control their kids, not the pup,, in all reality,,,,,,and train the parents,......I did not take that pup back......breeders watch lots of pups go home to food change, medical care wrongly done, and lots of unwarranted claims about their precious pups all done by humans that wont learn, study and listen to their breeders plea to do it the right way,, but people dont want to be told as an adult that they dont know what they are doing....so the breeder has to draw lines somewhere.......every case is different......you havae to live with the decisions you make......if a breeder took back every pup just because someone 3 months later decided it wasnt for them  , wed all be in the double digit red before we started....and the Us government and groups in this country are now trying to get laws passed in cities all across the states to make breeders give money back or tak e a pup back up to a one year old....If that ever comes to my town   Ill be the first one out of the business .

I'm not sure where you guys are located but near me you can find pups from $300-the sky is the limit. I'm sure there are plenty of pet quality pups somewhere in that mix. If you as a buyer don't do your homework, visit kennels, ask for documents, shot records, worming schedule, look at the health of other dogs on the property before you make your purchase, you have to take part of the blame. Also look for a healthy guarantee and see how many days you have to return the pup. Many people I have seen give 72 hrs no questions asked return if you are unhappy and 10 days for health reasons. Find a "good" vet and talk to him/her before you buy your pup. Let them know what you have planned and that you will be coming in and having a pup checked over. Ask what they check for and ask for more if they don't provide that.

I agree that many buyers make an impulse buy. I have done it myself and witnessed it in others. Use your intuition and trust it. If something doesn't feel or look right, walk away. I can't count how may times I have heard someone say, they knew something wasn't right about the transaction, yet they kept moving forward. If you smell feces and urine when you exit your car, before you even see dogs, get back in your car and drive away. Don't look at those pups and feel the need to rescue one. You will be on the board bitching and moaning about it later down the road. Maybe not, but probably. Why take the chance? How many more litters are out there?

Here's my own spin on the topic...

If I were a breeder, and had nice titled breeding stock, OFA, CERF, etc... I would consider it reasonable to charge $1,000+ for puppies.

However, I don't think anyone in my neck of the woods (can you hear the banjo music?) would likely pay that much for a pet GSD.  Pity that people will spend twice that on a little froo froo lap dog, but that's not a culture that I can change single-handed.

Suppose then I consider breeding un-titled GSD's, still OFA'ed and nice peds... I would consider it reasonable to charge $600 for puppies, to provide people in my backwater of West Virginia with an alternative to the cheap BYB's. 

However, such a proposition gives me the willies.  First, if I would advertise such a litter on this board, I would expect to catch flak from the righteous... "How dare you breed untitled dogs and besmirch the sanctity of the Captain's dream?!?"  And then, if I did title those dogs and then advertise puppies from a repeat breeding for sport/work/breeding, then I would expect the rumors to surface... "Don't buy those puppies!  Those parents produce only PETS.  Scandal!" 

Sounds like a lose-lose situation to me.

Yvette

for the record, we talked to our breeder and told them what we wanted and trusted them to help us pick the right pup. i know that people may not take the advice (prob more often than not), but we wanted to make sure we had a good match. i did have to remind my husband more than once that looks are not the first priority! we wanted temperment to match our needs. we were lucky to get a beautiful dog who has the perfect temperment for us. i ask questions of the breeder and ALWAYS follow their advice. we feed the dog food they recommended and i listen to any advice from them and do my utmost to follow their instructions whether its about food, training, grooming etc. i also know that probs they've encountered have occurred when buyers do not heed their advice or do not follow thru w/training. i've heard people in classes w/them make excuses about letting a dogs training fall by the wayside. we try to get out on saturdays to train w/them. it ensures that any bad habits (mine) can be corrected before they become a problem. alot of people may not really believe that dogs are different just like people. 2 pups from the same litter can be dramatically diff in temp/drive etc. i still wish there was a way to pay "pet" prices for a good pup that will never be a show or shutzhund dog. o well.

One thing as breeders that we can do, is "just say no".  If a home is not going to be suitable for a certain pup, just say no.  (Which is sooo much easier said than done!)  I am very uncomfortable saying no.  I wiggle around verbally, and try to convience them otherwise with what little charm I possess. 

As for the "pet" versus "working prospect" issue....A dog who is a great pet is doing an important job!  The family relies on the pet to be safe with the children, to not attack the neighbors without just cause, and to be trainable for each family's situation, often trained by people who have little or no experience in serious dog training. 

Should you pay LESS for an animal that has been bred to be intelligent, stable, and protective without  around your children who are beyond monetary value? 

How do you get a dog like that?  By testing, watching, and evaluating the parents and ancestors for trainability and mental stability before breeding.  One of the best ways to evaluate is to train and/or trial the dog for work. 

OOPS.. insert "training" after "without"

My experience has been from both ends of the spectrum: I was raised by parents who taught we children that a 'pound puppy' was as good, if not better than a 'purebred', so, as an adult I lived by that philosophy, getting all my pets as rescues. Then I met my husband, who believed that 'purebred' dogs were smarter, and better, than mutts. So, when my son took his dog back, & my cat died,we talked about getting a dog. He insisted on a pedigreed animal. My good friend, whom I work with, is a hobby breeder, all GSD's OFA'd, several pups titled in the past, many used by service organizations, etc. ....she said "I'm expecting a litter", I promptly paid her $550.00( friend price, which I thought at the time was very expensive, for a dog)  for the female pick of the litter. As it turned out, there were two pups, a male and a female, and 9 weeks later we had our Kali. This was such a wonderful dog (which, BTW, she guaranteed) that we were smitten; lock, stock, & barrel, head over heels in love with. Since then I have been reading everthing I can find every spare moment, visiting breeders, taking baby steps into schutzhund, etc, so when we got our next dog, the $1100.00 we paid for that pup seemed reasonable, and this time the breeder refused me the puppy I picked, because he was too high drive for a novice, and she was right, Beckett is drivey enough for me to start in schutzhund, but not too much for me too handle. So, I think that , if the general public had more exposure to what was involved in breeding the GSD's, training & showing, competing them (where's ABC Wide World of Sports?) they would be willing to cough up the price...I'n not rich, by any means, but I'm willing to pay for what I love, if I understand WHY! That's my two cents! jackie osborne

Okay, I have been preaching on this subject for two years now.  I have made the argument that the largest market for the GSD is the FAMILY PET market.  I also have been making the argument that a family pet is a working dog.  It is hard work to play with those little brats sticking pencils in your ears (without biting them on their little hands), it is work to constantly jump up everytime you hear an unusual sound in the front or back year and "check it out", it is hard work running to the front door and barking everytime some stranger is knocking on the door, etc.  Ya'll get the idea.  Give me a family pet that is well acclimated to my lifestyle and that is helping me protect our family and property, and I will take that over a Schutzhund III dog who lives in one of the many kennels "out back", anyday.  There is NO MORE NOBEL job a dog can have than a family pet.  IMO they are on par with a police, customs or military dogs.  Which is more desired by YOU, the dog that saves your wife or daughter from the guy who kicked in your front door or the dog that sniffed out 20 kilo's of cocaine in a Miami boat dock or a police dog that searched a warehouse where the alarm went off during the middle of the night?  I am by no means belittleing  the wonderful work the typical working dog does, although I do not think that the sport dogs (schutzhund, etc) are all that and a slice of pie, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

Point is:  there is an enormouse market for those that want a German Shepherd Dog as a pet and they do not want to spend over 300 dollars for it, because they can not afford more than that (if that much), or they think that it is possible that the dog could die from whatever and their money is just gone, or they think that the dog could be stolen, or because they think that "ya gotta be crazy to pay a thousand dollars for any dog", or they think that the dog could run away and get hit by a car, etc, etc.