"Tiffany / Wal-Mart" breeding - Page 1

Let me explain the context of my thread title... Newsweek ran an article on the shopping habits of Americans, showing that the retail stores at the extremes - high end lines like Tiffany, and deep discount big box stores like Wal-Mart - are prospering, but mid-level stores like JcPenney are struggling to make sales.

That got me thinking about dog breeding.  It seems we've gotten our breed just as polarized as our shopping habits.  On one end, we've got BYB's cranking out $200 pups to populate the classified ads, on the other end we've got people who spend years and years crafting a breeding program, titling their dogs, OFA, KKL, etc and they charge what they perceive to be a fair price for their quality dogs, maybe $1200.

So, what happens to the family who wants a quality companion animal, from healthy breeding stock, with solid nerves, and good structure?  If a buyer is not interested in titling and breeding and not blessed with a decent job, they are not going to pay $1200 for a puppy.  Then what options do they have?  The $200 BYB puppy apparently, or perhaps get lucky at the pound and find a decent dog.

A friend of mine recently asked my help to get an Aussie from a good breeder.  I dug around and found that the going price for a well bred Aussie with working/show parents, OFA, guarantee, etc cost about $1200 - $1500.  My buddy was not looking to do herding or showing, just a quality dog that will be free of genetic defects, sound nerves, and healthy enough for a lifetime of running in the woods while the guy rides his mountain bike.  Unfortunately he's going through a divorce and with alimony and child support payments looming, didn't feel he could cough up $1200.  Unfortunately I had no other options, nothing at all in the $600.  So what did he do?  Reluctantly gave a BYB $200 for a puppy and is hoping for the best.

There are those on this thread that would say it's wrong to breed untitled dogs, as our goal is to produce working dogs that have demonstrated their utility, yada yada yada.  However, we all know what hard work it takes to raise a dog and get titles, so I can't imagine a breeder being content to charge $600 for even the "pet quality" pups after investing all the blood, sweat, and tears.

So here's the reality check... are we truly "improving the breed" by making the GSD into an elitist luxury item that is priced so high that the Average Joe is stuck with only BYB crap as an alternative?

Curious to hear the responses.

Yvette

P.S.  Disclaimer #1:  I am not a breeder, and probably never will be one so I have no financial gain at stake with this post.

P.P.S. Disclaimer #2:  Any poster who calls me a moron or an idiot for asking such questions will be first mocked, and then ignored.

Yvette, interesting topic.

I love disclaimer #2! 1st mocked, then ignored. LOL

I just posted a 9 month old that I felt does not have the adequate drives or pronounced temperament for a strong breeding bitch.  At $600 one inquirer wanted to know what was wrong with her, must be because of age or "some defect."  Absolutely nothing wrong with her, I replied!  Her best qualities were simply good bone and exceptional pigment, and all else mediocre/good!!  A prospective buyer expects to pay it's worth or overworth from an established breeder, I guess.  When you offer a fair price, something is assumed lacking!

I do not understand the complaints about the prices of a good ,well bred GSD.  If you walk into a mall pet store and buy that cute little "designer dog" (AKA mutt), by the time you walk out you will have dropped around $1000.00.  So $1200 - $1500 for a real good, or even a pet quality dog does not seem outrageous to me.

There was a sign in my dad's auto shop.  "Quality is like buying oats.  If you want good clean fresh oats you pay a high price,  If you want oats that have already been through the horse, that comes cheaper."

I had a litter of pups last year that I had advertised for $500.00. I had a family emergengcy and thought if we lowered the price, they would sell fast. Boy was I wrong. Had very few inquiries and those that did wanted to know what was wrong with the puppies. Or they wanted a female puppy strickly for breeding. I choose to give them away to friends where they would have a good home over selling them cheap to some one who wanted them strickly for breeding.

Well, here we have it in a nutshell why the BYB's flourish! Very few people are willing to pay between $600 and $1,000 for a pet. They may know all about the risks of BYB, but money talks, and at least a pup from a BYB will not have all the issues a dog from the pound possibly might as a result of being abused or abandoned. It also is less likely to have the problems that caused the dog to be surrendered to the pound in the first place, such as aggression, fearfulness, etc. And, there ARE some decent BYB out there, people who raise the dogs in their own home with love and care, and look after shots and worming.

Valid point, Yvette!

BTW, I do know breeders who sell their pet quality pups for $400-600. As a matter of fact, I came close to buying a pet quality male for $600 not long ago. He had top bloodlines, but only one testicle.

Why is it that we feel more money means "better"?  I am guilty of that one and got totally ripped off.  I paid $3500 for a dog that has deformed kidneys.  He is still alive but his days are numbered.  Medical bills to keep him going and monitored are outrageoud.  Breeder / Importer would not replace, apologize, or refund any money.  I thought that since he was from a top producing VA3 male and top female, he would be great.  Looks great, but can't do anything with him but love him and keep him comfortable.

Yvette:  I'd probably have to agree with you that it makes it hard for the average person who's not into breeding or sport to get a nice pup of any breed for that matter-not just a gsd at a reasonable price.  I do understand the arguments that come from both sides- breeders indicating that they should be compensated for the extra time and money they spend on their dogs to make certain they are putting out quality not quantity, proving their dogs prior to breeding (which may or may not mean anything to the average joe); but then at the same time I sympathize with the buyers who just don't have $1,000 to drop on a pup, therefor getting stuck with whatever is left they can afford.  This happend just recently to a friend of mine and now she is stuck with a dog that has health issues.  Problem she had was she got very attached to the dog so taking it back was not an option- the breeder did refund the money BUT she still sold a dog with problems.  This was a perfect case of someone who wanted a nice pet quality dog but didn't have $1,000 to spend so they went to someone that had a pup for $550. 

Then there are the people that just can't justify spending that much for a dog and do not understand "what's the difference".  Up until I got my dog and started to understand the countless hours spent in training in order to get "the perfect dog" I was probably one of those people that thought "you must be CRAZY" to spend a grand on a dog. Only to find that I MUST have been one of those crazy's cause I wound up spending 4 times that; but you'll never ever hear me complain not one bit because I got more than what I paid for IMO.  I think it boils down to this....GREED!  There are some people that are hobby breeders that put out nice litters charging a very fair price just to sort of break even.  Those people typically are financially secure and don't really care about the money factor finding more rewards knowing they have quality pups going to appropriate homes that will appreciate them.  Then there are others that get on databases and hear how much money is being thrown around on puppies and dogs that they think "cha ching" THIS is how I'm gonna make some fast cash, meanwhile they have NO CLUE what it takes.  Would I necessarily pay $1,000 for a puppy today?  I'd have to say I probably would IF I knew the person first hand that was the breeder, if I knew their dogs and have seen them work and if the pups were from the lines I was looking for.  And this is only because I've gotten some pretty nasty tempered dogs in the past out of the paper when I was just looking for a reasonably priced pet.  Perhaps if I would have spent a few hundred dollars more I would have gotten a nicer dog that would still live with me to this day???  What I think would be a "reasonable" amount for a puppy of good quality would be between $600-$800.  I think that would be fair to both sides.  I guess if you want to compare Tiffany / Wal-mart it's kinda like you're getting basically the same thing BUT the quality is sometimes much different; Walmart may not last as long but will always sell more because most people can afford Walmart and can't even afford to window shop at Tiffany's. lol

Yvette, good topic.

As consumers research the breed more thoroughly they are coming to assume (and in most cases, correctly so) that a higher price means higher quality, that the $300 bargain pup in the long run may cost thousands in vet bills and corrective training for chronic behavior problems. Of course high price, just like low price, is no solid guarantee of anything other than that some dog vender has lined his or her pocket, but when one is trying to predict the future, the price of a pup acts like a flag that quickly facilitates a quality judgment.

I appreciate good breeders who take the time to screen and title their breeding stock, but my primary interest in owning a dog is for companionship, and I want my companion to be in good health and live a long comfortable life. For me $1000 is the cut off for a pup from a good breeder. As touched upon many times on this forum, a pup is a crap shoot, even from the best of lines. If I was going to jump into dog sports hard core or if I wanted a trained adult, only then do the higher prices seem remotely justified.

I understand your lament: I wish more quality breeders were willing to offer pups to quality pet homes in the $750 - $900 range. I don’t think this is an unreasonable amount to pay for a pup who may not be SCH or show quality but otherwise is a good healthy stable animal, if more higher-end breeders did this it go toward would drying up the unscrupulous BYB market. For a working middle class household I think that price range indicates a quality animal.

I have had a lifelong dream of becoming a breeder of quality GSDs. For a long time I was not in a position to actually breed. Two years ago I found myself ready financially and personally able to commit the time and effort necessary. I began my quest for a nice healthy green  (one I could title myself) or already titled/surveyed V rated bitch to be my foundation. My requirements were not outrageous. V rated conformation, and an absolutely stable character with very good drive. One I could have fun with on the field. HAHAHAHAHA! joke was on me! It is two years later, I have been through SEVERAL females- most of which were imported through a very well known kennel. I have had- "horrible character", which was returned and replaced with "paper title" (dog knew NOTHING), and oh yeah was not able to conceive- this one was returned , and replaced with "EPI bitch". I have spent nearly $20K on dogs/shipping/vet bills. FINALLY, I have a very nice bitch that I got last week (from a different breeder). She is a little older than I originally wanted, but has the character and training and is V rated and proven. She will be bred in the fall to a suitable stud. I will not charge more than $1k for a pup, more like $750. I will screen buyers as best as I can. I will ideally keep back a nice female to continue my program, and go from there. I am also in t he process of training my male for our first title. He is awesome, but I will not use him for breeding for health reasons.  I think my experiences would have sent some people running for the hills. I have lost more money than I will probably ever recover, but for me it's about a lifelong dream and passion- heck, isn't that what 2nd mortgages are for anyway?

Theresa