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by Uber Land on 17 March 2009 - 01:03
by Uber Land on 17 March 2009 - 01:03
by katjo74 on 17 March 2009 - 02:03
That name sounds familiar (Surefire) but I'm not sure why. Maybe I've come across them in time past.
I can't say I'm aware of any other abnormality/oddity personally.
by Incavale on 17 March 2009 - 02:03
by Incavale on 17 March 2009 - 02:03
by katjo74 on 17 March 2009 - 04:03
Oh my gosh. How amazing, Inca. She's rather...well, cute. But she looks currently like a tri-colored Border Collie puppy.
Yeah, I bet you were shocked, but its interesting, too. Are you planning on keeping her, or selling her at some point? Very fascinating. Thank you for sharing the information on her, by the way. You didn't have to come out and tell people about her & provide pics, but you have. Its been very nice of you and given us alot to discuss on this subject. Best wishes with her and your other babies.
by Incavale on 17 March 2009 - 07:03
Our "panda" girl is a little pig always at the milk bar.
I am in a dilemma as to what to do with her.
I don't want her used for breeding but I am curious to see what would happen
I am searching for a loving home for her, close to us so I can see her grow up
I am planning to have her and the parents DNA tested
I have totally enjoyed all the talk and knowledge that has been expressed in this forum
My gut feeling about all this is that it is a throw back to some dim dark past and that most breeders probably put these little oddities down and never aired there dark secrets
Its only now that people are coming out and saying that these unusual pups are occuring and they are not being put down simply because of their colour good on Phenom Kennels
I have spoken to a well respected GSD breeder/vet & she says that she has not seen these markings before
Poor little babies that paid with their lives because they weren't the right colour isn't this sad or is it just me?
Hear from you soon
by GSDXephyr on 17 March 2009 - 23:03
by pod on 18 March 2009 - 08:03
There is undoubtedly faily recent common ancestry in the continental and British herding breeds but the similarity in markings indicates a tie-in much further back than that. The tanpoint pattern, along with white spotting (irish pattern) is widespread accross breed types. They're both present in Hounds, Terriers, Toy breeds, Gundogs etc, and it's the same genes and alleles that cause these patterns. The mutations that caused these occurred no doubt very early in the domesticartion process, or could even have been present already in the founding wolf population.
Although the S locus allele that produces irish pattern is the same thoughout these breeds, there is often breed idiosyncrasies where selection has refined the expression to a particualr pattern. Modifying genes are responsible for some of the the minor refinements and in some breeds, majoe genes eg the split face in the Border Collie.
As I mentioned above, there are other factors at work, such as developmental noise giving a randomness to pigment placement, but the thue panda pattern does seem to be slightly different generally in that there is less of a set pattern to the patches and often the face has a large extent of white. Not unknown in other breeds I know, and still could be attribable to modifiers, but still, not typical of irish spotting.
So, a sable pup without white on face is going to have blue eyes due to lack of facial pigment? I can see such for the dogs with the abnormally large amount of white on their face/noses like some of these, but straight sable-? The sable blue eyed pup was featured in an ad right here. This bulletin provides info on the sable blue eyed pups I'm referring to (possible diluted gene involved with coat color?) http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/classifieds/72428.html
There is a remote possibility that that sable's blue eye could be down to missing pigment as a result of a blip in melanocyte migration, but in reality it's more likely due to another factor. There are at least three different types of blue eye and the probable one here is the one present in other breeds that don't necessarily need white facial pigment to be present for blue eye. Most common in the Siberian Husky and in other breeds to a lesser extent, I've recenlty heard of a Labrador with blue eye. This type is believed to be inherited as a recessive but I think it may not follow that totally. So it seems it's present in the GSD gene pool too.
The dilution gene 'D' that produces blue pigment in the coat does have an effect on eye colour. It does though just lighten the colour so a brown eye becomes amber. It might give the impression of a blue or slightly green eye in a pup but this changes as the pup's iris pigment develops.
by pod on 18 March 2009 - 08:03
I think you're right to assume this is something from the past. The marking are very typical of irish spotting, a pattern that has been in the breed right from the start but doesn't show very often because of rareity and/or breeders' unwillingness to be open about these things. I don't think looking common ancesrty in Frankie's pedigree is going to tell you much as the mutation that caused the panda happened within Frankie and would not have been present in her parents or ancestors.
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