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by Prager on 26 April 2010 - 00:04
OK you can start by read this.
http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/breeding/ensp.htm
When older, here is one of many examples.
I take my pups on short hikes to the shallow creek and jump over it and walk away where I may hide and appear periodically. Thus I let them deal with the stress of the separation and danger of unknown (water) (while I am teaching them command "come" which is additional benefit), I am letting them figure out how to get across and come to me and thus eliminate the stress presented to them. It is also interesting to see different personalities too. Some will jump into the water with out a thought some will try to avoid to get wet by jump from rock to rock and some will cry and do nothing. In the end I will always make sure that they will all win. you can set up scenarios based on separation anxiety or and food drive and so on. Your imagination is your limit. Just make sure that the scenario is winnable and that each of the pups always wins. There is an ancient book I have PM you .
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/breeding/ensp.htm
When older, here is one of many examples.
I take my pups on short hikes to the shallow creek and jump over it and walk away where I may hide and appear periodically. Thus I let them deal with the stress of the separation and danger of unknown (water) (while I am teaching them command "come" which is additional benefit), I am letting them figure out how to get across and come to me and thus eliminate the stress presented to them. It is also interesting to see different personalities too. Some will jump into the water with out a thought some will try to avoid to get wet by jump from rock to rock and some will cry and do nothing. In the end I will always make sure that they will all win. you can set up scenarios based on separation anxiety or and food drive and so on. Your imagination is your limit. Just make sure that the scenario is winnable and that each of the pups always wins. There is an ancient book I have PM you .
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by Vixen on 26 April 2010 - 02:04
Yoshy,
In selecting to breed good hip-scored parents, I agree in itself is no absolute guarantee that puppies are safe from any hip problems. Likewise, borderline/poor hips may not always mean every puppy will suffer same. HOWEVER, are Breeders prepared to play a game of Russian Roulette with a cavalier attitude that other areas are so worthwhile that chances will be taken? Or perhaps a little disappointment that certain considerations will have to be overlooked, because of the obvious RISK of puppies future health?
Of course no dog is perfect, but a Breeder's responsibility is surely to keep trying to improve and excel. The GSD is not rare, there is plenty to choose. Not allowing oneself to be swayed because of certain qualities, WITH other more serious aspects to future prospects. Instead searching for similar qualities BUT with better potential to future health prospects would be the far more responsible choice.
I don't want a Breeder to throw in the Pot - Ingredients such as: Excellent, with mediocre, maybe, perhaps, ok and good.
Preferring Ingredients; Very good, with useful, desirable, virtue and valuable.
From that second mix a Breeder has given more scope to healthy successful potential puppies. Giving myself (and other Owners) a good foundation to train and shape into a beautiful and final example (also to the best of our ability) of a well-balanced confident example of the breed.
Vixen
In selecting to breed good hip-scored parents, I agree in itself is no absolute guarantee that puppies are safe from any hip problems. Likewise, borderline/poor hips may not always mean every puppy will suffer same. HOWEVER, are Breeders prepared to play a game of Russian Roulette with a cavalier attitude that other areas are so worthwhile that chances will be taken? Or perhaps a little disappointment that certain considerations will have to be overlooked, because of the obvious RISK of puppies future health?
Of course no dog is perfect, but a Breeder's responsibility is surely to keep trying to improve and excel. The GSD is not rare, there is plenty to choose. Not allowing oneself to be swayed because of certain qualities, WITH other more serious aspects to future prospects. Instead searching for similar qualities BUT with better potential to future health prospects would be the far more responsible choice.
I don't want a Breeder to throw in the Pot - Ingredients such as: Excellent, with mediocre, maybe, perhaps, ok and good.
Preferring Ingredients; Very good, with useful, desirable, virtue and valuable.
From that second mix a Breeder has given more scope to healthy successful potential puppies. Giving myself (and other Owners) a good foundation to train and shape into a beautiful and final example (also to the best of our ability) of a well-balanced confident example of the breed.
Vixen
by Prager on 26 April 2010 - 15:04
Beetree
yes! It is interesting that you said tat, (it probably went over most people's head) since I am using the example of upside down pyramid or trialgle or cone myself.
Prager Hans
Http://www.alpinek9.com
yes! It is interesting that you said tat, (it probably went over most people's head) since I am using the example of upside down pyramid or trialgle or cone myself.
Prager Hans
Http://www.alpinek9.com
by darylehret on 27 April 2010 - 02:04
It is just about self evident and proven by Cakmen Battaglia that pups which are put through mild stresses situation will physiologically "learn" how to deal with these and other situations and cope with them better then dogs which are not subject to such situations.
Mr. B has proven nothing. He's an academic researcher. He cites his credits, draws his conclusions.
Improved cardio vascular performance (heart rate)
Stronger heart beats
Stronger adrenal glands
More tolerance to stress
Greater resistance to disease
How do you measure that? Where are the results? They didn't, and there aren't any. What exactly are "stronger" adrenal glands anyway? Did they test 'em with parvo, or what?
The article states nothing about raising test subjects in a stress free environment, but says a 'sensory enriched environment'.
I believe that one of the most important attributes during early socialization of pups (or children for that matter) is achieved through introducing the pups and enable them to deal with stress and how to overcome stressful situation. This is the truth whith not just ENS but also with all the socialization.
Mr. B has proven nothing. He's an academic researcher. He cites his credits, draws his conclusions.
Although experiments have not yetHere are mesurable benefits acording to Battaglia:
produced specific information about the optimal amounts
of stress needed to make young animals psychologically
or physiologically ‘‘superior’’, researchers generally agree
that some forms of stress have value. ~Carmen L. Battaglia, PhD, 2009
Improved cardio vascular performance (heart rate)
Stronger heart beats
Stronger adrenal glands
More tolerance to stress
Greater resistance to disease
How do you measure that? Where are the results? They didn't, and there aren't any. What exactly are "stronger" adrenal glands anyway? Did they test 'em with parvo, or what?
There are no public records of this program.I can not understand why would someone/anyone disagree with this. The article is silly and smacks with political correctness promoting none (0) stressful none conflict upbringing and environment for children.
In writing this review, interviews were held with the former
director of the program (Col. M.W. Castleberry) and a lead
research geneticist. ~Carmen L. Battaglia, PhD, 2009
The article states nothing about raising test subjects in a stress free environment, but says a 'sensory enriched environment'.
I believe that one of the most important attributes during early socialization of pups (or children for that matter) is achieved through introducing the pups and enable them to deal with stress and how to overcome stressful situation. This is the truth whith not just ENS but also with all the socialization.
On the other hand, tolerance to stress can vary between
individuals. What may be too intense for one may not be
for another. Newell (1967) studied the effects of early
handling and stimulation in both, perinatal and postnatal
(maternal deprivation) environments, and showed that there
are differential effects on development for animals of different
strains or genetic backgrounds.~Carmen L. Battaglia, PhD, 2009
Yes, I agree. Ooohh, sounds like "genetics" though, to me. Have you heard what nervebags those "super dogs" from the Army's Bio-Sensor program really were like? Not from the CO's involved in the program, but from the handlers? No Q-tips or wet rags are necessary for me. I've conducted these tests more than a few times, with exact same parent litters, with and without ENS. There's various detailed reasons and complicated explanations as to why I say so, but just know that I think the "ENS" protocol is B.S., just marketing hype causing a mass delusional faith, and general confusion about the priority of genetics.
The exact contributions of early stimulation, environmental
experiences and heredity to performance continues
to remain largely an unanswered question. ~Carmen L. Battaglia, PhD, 2009
by LAVK-9 on 27 April 2010 - 20:04
Was watching a show the other night about Jeffery Dahmer. He was a bad seed. It couldn't have been from environment cause his parents were "normal". Yet Jeffery turned out to be a serial killer. So with something not being right in his head(suposedly he started to decline after a hernia surgery) and it not having to so so much with environmet (as in bad parenting) but would have to be some bad genetics. So in the dog world....that could happen as well ( I would think) that even if raised in a loving home with socialization a dog could end up being aggressive,fearful,nervy etc. As I was told before with talking about HD. It is a shuffle of a deck of cards.The joker (being bad hips) might not appear on top with the first shuffle(breeding) but the next shuffle(breeding) might bring that card to the top and the joker (HD) is there. So couldn't this mean that a bad temperament could happen as well through the passing of genetic traits to a pup in a litter?
by LAVK-9 on 28 April 2010 - 18:04
No thoughts about this?
by beetree on 28 April 2010 - 19:04
Yes, and then maybe it is a mutation, a fluke. Or maybe he got dropped on his head as a baby and someone's not telling. Some personality tendencies are heritable like depressives, alcoholism, that I agree.
by VomMarischal on 28 April 2010 - 19:04
LAV, not ALL features of EACH parent come out in the offspring; and sometimes the offspring get genes from way back in the bloodlines. Not only that, but I've sure known humans who can fake being "normal"; that's what sociopathy is all about. There's almost no way to tell what features of an individual are genetic and which are cultural/environmental, because it's illegal to put a human in a box for 18 years and see how he/she turns out, just out of curiosity. Pretty much the same with dogs, too.
I actually dislike puppies getting TOO MUCH training/socialization when young, because then you can't tell what the dog was born with and what it acquired. For example, if I bang pots and pans from the day the puppies are born, I am influencing them to be immune to banging noise, as opposed to testing them at 6 weeks to find out what their natural nerve level is like. I want to know what to expect out of the dog without its being too influenced by a dedicated trainer. A guy was telling me the other day about starting to train his litter for the bark and hold as early as four weeks. So how would a person know about the dog's natural characteristics? I guess someone REALLY good could tell the difference, but I don't think even they would know the full extent of the dog's genetic issues.
I also know a supposedly good trainer (not my style though) who always has weak dogs. I can't figure out if he just can't pick the right puppy to save his life or if he turns them into cowards by the time they are four months old. They are all nervy and freaky, like the last four in a row. Nevertheless, he trains them obsessively, always trying to get them to feel comfortable around people at training, which never happens. So a really good trainer can train a really bad dog, and have it pass the breeding requirements. As far as I'm concerned, that's unethical.
I actually dislike puppies getting TOO MUCH training/socialization when young, because then you can't tell what the dog was born with and what it acquired. For example, if I bang pots and pans from the day the puppies are born, I am influencing them to be immune to banging noise, as opposed to testing them at 6 weeks to find out what their natural nerve level is like. I want to know what to expect out of the dog without its being too influenced by a dedicated trainer. A guy was telling me the other day about starting to train his litter for the bark and hold as early as four weeks. So how would a person know about the dog's natural characteristics? I guess someone REALLY good could tell the difference, but I don't think even they would know the full extent of the dog's genetic issues.
I also know a supposedly good trainer (not my style though) who always has weak dogs. I can't figure out if he just can't pick the right puppy to save his life or if he turns them into cowards by the time they are four months old. They are all nervy and freaky, like the last four in a row. Nevertheless, he trains them obsessively, always trying to get them to feel comfortable around people at training, which never happens. So a really good trainer can train a really bad dog, and have it pass the breeding requirements. As far as I'm concerned, that's unethical.
by LAVK-9 on 29 April 2010 - 00:04
I actually dislike puppies getting TOO MUCH training/socialization when young, because then you can't tell what the dog was born with and what it acquired
When i got Dar I socialized him with people but not other dogs except the ones I had. Even though he was hanging out with them he was very bonded to me. I didn't do much with him till he was about 9 months.As a puppy he would steal my pots and pans off the shelf that I had them on. He jumpped on anything and was crazy...and still is.UNLESS he is in obedience mode. I like to know the parents of the pup and then I look at the group of pups interacting with eachother.If there is one I like I take it away from the siblings and mom and see how they act.I like to see them explore and investigate noises.If they react that is ok as long as they recover. I rather have a pup that is attracted by noise then afraid of it.Also I don't like a pup that is too sencitive to pain as in getting shots or scruffing them.
So a really good trainer can train a really bad dog, and have it pass the breeding requirements. As far as I'm concerned, that's unethical
I agree...drives me nuts when I see a dog that is blatenly a nerve ball and they pass cause there are tricks to make a bad dog look good enough to pass.Truely a shame for the breed!!
When i got Dar I socialized him with people but not other dogs except the ones I had. Even though he was hanging out with them he was very bonded to me. I didn't do much with him till he was about 9 months.As a puppy he would steal my pots and pans off the shelf that I had them on. He jumpped on anything and was crazy...and still is.UNLESS he is in obedience mode. I like to know the parents of the pup and then I look at the group of pups interacting with eachother.If there is one I like I take it away from the siblings and mom and see how they act.I like to see them explore and investigate noises.If they react that is ok as long as they recover. I rather have a pup that is attracted by noise then afraid of it.Also I don't like a pup that is too sencitive to pain as in getting shots or scruffing them.
So a really good trainer can train a really bad dog, and have it pass the breeding requirements. As far as I'm concerned, that's unethical
I agree...drives me nuts when I see a dog that is blatenly a nerve ball and they pass cause there are tricks to make a bad dog look good enough to pass.Truely a shame for the breed!!
by Prager on 04 May 2010 - 17:05
darylehret
So, Darryl, you are saying that stimulation of puppies have no effect on their development. Long time ago I have learned that if there is a argument the truth becomes more apparent if we bring the situation into extremes. Thus if you allow me here, according to your reasoning, if you lock a pup into the shoe box, it will develop exactly the same way as it would, if this same pup would be properly stimulated during the same period of his development. And from that you deduct that handling the pups and touching them is a marketing ploy.
HMMM...
Hans Prager.
http://www.alpinek9.com
So, Darryl, you are saying that stimulation of puppies have no effect on their development. Long time ago I have learned that if there is a argument the truth becomes more apparent if we bring the situation into extremes. Thus if you allow me here, according to your reasoning, if you lock a pup into the shoe box, it will develop exactly the same way as it would, if this same pup would be properly stimulated during the same period of his development. And from that you deduct that handling the pups and touching them is a marketing ploy.
HMMM...
Hans Prager.
http://www.alpinek9.com
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