Breed Standard Changes in UK (GSD and non-GSD) - Page 8

 " i am sure some one will correct me if i a wrong"

Ah... but will you be able to hear?  How will you know, if you only listen to people who say the exact same thing in the exact same words as yourself?

" oh and jayne if a dog has a roach back he will have it if he is standing lying down or flying because it is in his make up it 
does not appear then disapear "

Once again, jim...  THAT IS MY POINT EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!  That is why you can't define it according to the elevation, as that is RELATIVE.

"higher means above the wither hope that helps you jayne "

Try using a dictionary, you can start with "higheR" (of greater elevation) and "RELATIVE" (considered in relation or in proportion to something else).

I don't make up these words, I just know how to use them.  I am beginning to understand that in your world they mean something entirely different.  A world where one point is higher than another point even if the object in question is turned upside down.

.....

Ok, you got me.  You're really just pulling my leg, or trolling, right?  You really understand what "higher" means, you just want to save face now, right?

hell no jayne higher means above that means if i get i higher mark than you in a test then i will be above you
jim h

Jayne, Let it go now.  You may think it's smart to start a "word war"... I'm sure you're smart enough to understand what Jim's saying? 

 

Been looking round for other definitions of roach and one here, Linda Shaw's website, does actually refer to the elevation in relation to the qithers.  Jim, please read this and take a look at the illustation on the webpage -

"THE ROACH BACK
A true roach is any convex (upward) curvature of the spine. It doesn’t really matter if it starts before the withers, after the withers, in the upper or lower back, or is higher or lower than the withers. If the spine is arched anywhere along its length, it’s roached, although the roach can certainly vary in severity. A dog straining at the leash can appear roached, but may not be. The rear is driving forward and the front is stationary; something has to give. However, if the dog displays a curvature when free standing, posed or not, and when moving freely at the trot, it’s roached."

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/04_The_Back/The_Back.html

According to M Willis " a roach is a clearly defined elevation in the centre of the back such that the spine arches. This is not as common as critics suggest. A slight arching over the loin when gaiting does occur and should not be confused with a roach back. However given a choice a roach back is a lesser evil than a long soft one."

Thank you Wildmoor, I'd just read that too. Nem & Percy Elliot give a similar and more detailed definition in their book.

Hi Pod
I just have an earlier version of the book just written by Nem, from the 69 but no mention in there.
A few deffinitions I have found.
1)Convex curvature of the back involving thoracic and lumbar regions
2) a defect in conformation, most commonly in the horse, which does not affect performance but is unattractive esthetically. The dorsal spinous processes of the caudal thoracic and lumbar vertebrae protrude excessively giving the animal a convex topline. Called also kyphosis.
3) Having a back like that of roach said of a horse whose back a convex instead of a concave curve.
Most roach backs are in relation to humans or horses.
Also found a picture of a true roach back in the GSD
picture wont upload try this link
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h210/wildmoor/roach_back-roach-back-dogs-dog-pupp.jpg

Ha. That's a male in the middle of a tie with a bitch. That's not a roach, that's a boy going, "bitch got mah balls."

pod if you look at the bedlington terrier there you will see a roach back which is also asked for in the standard nearly all dogs have a slight dip behind the withers that does not make it a roach back for me a roach will always be when the back is higher than the withers when the dog is standing normal, too many people mix up the sloping angle in the croup of a correctly constructed germen shepherd and call it roached which it most definately is not but as you have pointed out their would seem to be a lot of different definations of the word roach and we will have to agree to disagree on the description of roach back
jim h

Thank you Jim for reading my posts.  I agree, many dogs do have a dip behind the withers, and yes also agree this does not automatically make a roach.  The roach comes from the point of the withers back to the start of the croup.  The croup should not come into it.  If it did, many breeds would also have a roach back. 

You will see from all the various defintions that there is one common defining feature of a roach back, and that is that there is a convex curve to the back.  There is no mention of this curve having to be higher than withers and that's common sense to me because of the reasons already stated.

I dont' know if you're in the UK, but if you were around the GSD rings in the 80s you would probably have seen some roach backs by your definition.  Back then we didn't have the extreme sloping toplines, or at least it wasn't nearly so common, so yes, the roach in the back would have risen above the withers.  In the modern day GSD, I believe the curve of the back has become more pronounced, but also the topline has dropped on the rear end because of crouching hindquarters.  This brings, what would have been the highest point of the back, down to a level below the withers.  This doesn't alter the curve in the back....so, by definition, the dog still has a roach back.